$Freeroll NLHE MTT: KK vs Ace On Flop - How Many Barrels?

BearPlay

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Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 22/11/0.5

Weekly league tourney where skill level is usually high.

Early stages of MTT, drew KK HU vs T/A. Ace hits flop. Ugh.


Merge Network Spring Series IV - Sunday No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t10.00/t20.00 Blinds - 10 players


MP2: t3420.00 171 BBs
MP3: t3170.00 158.50 BBs
CO: t3120.00 156 BBs
BTN: t3000.00 150 BBs
Hero (SB): t3595.00 179.75 BBs
BB: t2990.00 149.50 BBs
UTG: t2970.00 148.50 BBs
UTG+1: t2355.00 117.75 BBs
UTG+2: t2910.00 145.50 BBs
MP1: t2590.00 129.50 BBs

Pre Flop: (t30) Hero is SB with K K
4 folds, MP2 calls t20, 3 folds, Hero raises to t80.00, 1 fold, MP2 calls t60

Flop: (t180) A 9 7 (2 players)
Hero bets t180.00
MP2 calls t180


Other than my read that villain is a tight player and a sinking feeling that he's got the Ace, how do I proceed?
 
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Arjonius

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While all tight villains aren't the same, what is he reasonably likely to have for his actions? If not an A, then quite possibly a set. And basically nothing you beat. So if you continue betting, you're assuming / hoping he has Ax and will lay it down to your presumed bigger A. This might work against some weak-tight players, but you need it to work pretty often - I'd guess too often to make barreling better than giving up.

Also, I'd bet less than pot. How often will a tight player float 120 or even 100?
 
BearPlay

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Ok, that makes sense to me. The reason for my ask is because I often see other players who push baby or middle pairs against a high board and end up with a nice pot. Granted, I'm probably seeing a small part of the big picture, and I realize that it's very player-dependent, but I'm just trying to make sure that I'm not surrendering too soon.

Ok, less than a pot on the flop. How do you feel about a x/c? I didn't check the flop because I thought that would show weakness.

Not to be results-oriented, but he did call my flop bet, I shot again on the turn, he called, and I surrendered.
 
Arjonius

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Since whether to fire the second barrel is quite player-dependent, you need to look at whether to do so or to surrender on a player by player basis. For instance, if tight player A never calls the flop with less than TPGK, he's considerably less likely to fold to a turn bet than tight player B who is more willing to float one street but not two with say 2nd or maybe even 3rd pair.

Another factor / question, given you feel he's tight, is how likely he is to have limped an A in the first place.
 
BearPlay

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Roger that, Arj. It's slowly but surely coming together for me. Thank you kindly for the input.
 
Poker Orifice

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How much would you be c-betting on this flop if you'd been holding AK, AQ (or AA)?
 
BearPlay

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How much would you be c-betting on this flop if you'd been holding AK, AQ (or AA)?

Hey PO.

It depends on the player/situation etc., but in this case, I would have bet 2/3 to pot for TPTK/TPGK.

With AA, I would have probably bet 1/2 pot to let him catch up.
 
Poker Orifice

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It depends on the player/situation etc.,

for sure this ^ part is key... especially when it's in games where you're playing the same individuals over & over. (ie. I'll often check TPGK on a AXX dry-lookin' board vs. certain individuals, knowing I'll have a far better chance of getting two streets of value vs. them then if I'd just lead out on the flop.)
 
BearPlay

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Feels like I may be one of those "certain individuals" for you hehe.

I really need to be less exploitable. Last weekend, the guy to my left called out my hand every time I raised, and he was exactly right. It was funny actually, but in the moment, it became really clear how predictable I am and how others are using that to their chip advantage.

Thanks PO. I have complete respect for your game.
 
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S3mper

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Why is it that Ace always hits the flopppp!!! What I would have done in this spot would be to secretly take the Ace off the board when no one was looking and switch it with one of my Kings giving me in Jamie Golds words "Top Top". and then if another King hits the board I would secretly put back the Ace for my original king giving me a set of Kings.

Only way to play it IMO
 
BearPlay

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Hehe, you are so right about that, S3. Seems like the number of times that A flops vs cowboys in the pocket far exceeds the actual probability.

Commence rigatard debate. :D
 
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Hey PO.

It depends on the player/situation etc., but in this case, I would have bet 2/3 to pot for TPTK/TPGK.

With AA, I would have probably bet 1/2 pot to let him catch up.
As PO mentioned, consider checking these spots more often. If we have TP, what can he really call us with? the board is really dry, with only a few straight draw combinations and the ace basically kills action a lot of the time, checking to allow him to improve to a second best hand, or put a card out there that gives him the chance to call with a draw, allows him to bluff if he wants too, aaand in the highly unlikely event that he actually has us beat, we control the pot size too.



Why is it that Ace always hits the flopppp!!! What I would have done in this spot would be to secretly take the Ace off the board when no one was looking and switch it with one of my Kings giving me in Jamie Golds words "Top Top". and then if another King hits the board I would secretly put back the Ace for my original king giving me a set of Kings.

Only way to play it IMO

An ace hits the flop like 20% of the time with pocket kings, alot right!




in regards to this hand, what i usually like to do in spots like this is bet the flop really small. what this allows me to do, is put in a second barrell on the turn of the same size(blocking bet). This works really well against bad players because there is still value to be had against a lot of holdings they could have, weaker pairs in general. So we bet small to target those hands in the weaker parts of his range. There is also the strong chance he has Ax here, so the two bets are essentially asking him "do you have it?" if he raises at any stage we're done with the hand.

so the play looks like this and is designed to get us to a really cheap river card, so we don't get bluffed, and so we don't lose too much... it's also really easy to play, making our decisions easier postflop when OOP.

i'm betting flop to around 70-80 chips, i'm doing the same on the turn and river(maybe making it around 100 a piece on Turn/River). So we can only spend a maximum of 280 here postflop, which isn't going to cripple us. This allows a hand like 66 to call and call and call to the river. You'd be suprised how often it works, we extract small value from worse hands, and we can't really be bluffed off our hand, unless he's overly aggro which he is not (0.5% agg) of course we are also kind of turning our hand into a bluff if he has the Ax, but it's just one of those spots that's really hard to play in any conventional manner. The other option we have here is to just check the flop, and hope he checks back, but any bets he puts out we're essentially folding to them, as we would be playing a guessing game. SO either of those lines is fine, i prefer the bet/bet/bet small trick, but checking is fine too.

playing it the way you did, he can only really call with stuff that beats us, and if he does call with stuff that's worse, we have to shutdown on the turn/river, and any bet he might make, we basically are forced to fold.
 
BearPlay

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As PO mentioned, consider checking these spots more often. If we have TP, what can he really call us with? the board is really dry, with only a few straight draw combinations and the ace basically kills action a lot of the time, checking to allow him to improve to a second best hand, or put a card out there that gives him the chance to call with a draw, allows him to bluff if he wants too, aaand in the highly unlikely event that he actually has us beat, we control the pot size too.


Makes perfect sense, especially as you both said, against certain individuals who are likely to do our betting for us. I definitely need to add more x/c and x/r lines to my arsenal.



In regards to this hand, what i usually like to do in spots like this is bet the flop really small. what this allows me to do, is put in a second barrell on the turn of the same size(blocking bet). This works really well against bad players because there is still value to be had against a lot of holdings they could have, weaker pairs in general. So we bet small to target those hands in the weaker parts of his range. There is also the strong chance he has Ax here, so the two bets are essentially asking him "do you have it?" if he raises at any stage we're done with the hand.

so the play looks like this and is designed to get us to a really cheap river card, so we don't get bluffed, and so we don't lose too much... it's also really easy to play, making our decisions easier postflop when OOP.

i'm betting flop to around 70-80 chips, i'm doing the same on the turn and river(maybe making it around 100 a piece on Turn/River). So we can only spend a maximum of 280 here postflop, which isn't going to cripple us. This allows a hand like 66 to call and call and call to the river. You'd be suprised how often it works, we extract small value from worse hands, and we can't really be bluffed off our hand, unless he's overly aggro which he is not (0.5% agg) of course we are also kind of turning our hand into a bluff if he has the Ax, but it's just one of those spots that's really hard to play in any conventional manner. The other option we have here is to just check the flop, and hope he checks back, but any bets he puts out we're essentially folding to them, as we would be playing a guessing game. SO either of those lines is fine, i prefer the bet/bet/bet small trick, but checking is fine too.


After playing weekly with this guy, I just kinda knew that he was big-aced but the only support that I have is knowing him and his play fairly well.

That said, I really like your donking/blocking technique to test the waters and going from there. I'm so used to leading out when I have a hand, I need to pause more and reconsider alternatives. What you are describing feels similar to smallball, which I was studying yesterday.




playing it the way you did, he can only really call with stuff that beats us, and if he does call with stuff that's worse, we have to shutdown on the turn/river, and any bet he might make, we basically are forced to fold.

This is something that Arj, PO, and now you have said many times, but it just clicked for me. He is only going to call with hands that beat us, in the way that I played it, because I gave him no other options. Maybe I had to hear it one more time.

Thanks Wizz. I always appreciate your analyses and your feedback.
 
jdeliverer

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You're betting too big on the flop IMO - I know you're very deep stacked, but the board is so dry that you're not extracting extra value from draws, and you're just encouraging worse hands to fold. KK is not a hand that wants to play a big pot here, especially out of position.

Betting again basically turns your hand into a bluff. This board does not lend itself to a double barrel primarily because there aren't many flops that really change the texture of the board (i.e., if he thinks his hand is good on the flop, most turn cards won't change that). There aren't any overcards that could come on the turn that you could represent, there aren't any draws that can hit, and you only have two outs to actually improve. I would probably check/call one street, but if you're facing medium-large bets on both the turn and river just give up.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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as played....you gotta shut down. give up.

Ideally, I like the idea of betting a little smaller on the flop. It just saves you money when he has the A and doesn't look too weird or weak if you would normally bet somewhere between 50-66% of the pot then go ahead and bet something like 90-100 on this flop.

Once he calls...you gotta dig deep on your range reads on this guy. Is he the type of player that will limp with a Big Ace? Is he the type of player that can lay down a weak ace to significant pressure? or is he likely to call down with any ace? If he is likely to call down with any ace...then just give up.

If he is likely to be holding ace small or ace medium, and fold it to pressure then you COULD take those chips you saved on your smaller flop bet and invest them in a small-ish turn bet. If you had bet 90 on the flop the pot would be 360 going to the turn. If you bet 170 on the turn and he calls...you are done with the hand unless you bink a K. If you bet on the turn and he raises, you are done with the hand. This line would get you to the river for a total cost of 80+90+170= 340 and this way you can't be bluffed off your KK, you MIGHT get a weak A to fold and you give yourself the cheapest price to suckout by hitting your 2 outer. You can comfortably check/fold the river 100% of the time. (wait, 95% of the time. because 5% you will bink a K and you can lead out small again).
 
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