$Freeroll NLHE MTT: JJs facing second 9 on the river

KKillerss

KKillerss

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Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 27/10/27

Easy fold?
on the river if I bet I would only be called by better hands, Check/Check I thought Id have decent chances. Checking could induce a bluff on the missed flush, but was expecting it so much that I (wishfull thinking) didnt consider the trips or straight. The shove should wake me up? OTOH I was having a great moment, winning 4 hands in a row without showdown, so I thought my perceived image was too aggressive.
Winning the hand would have made me chip leader

Betting size-
Not happy with the turn bet. Probably got scared with the straight and thought that with a nine he would have raised...



888Poker, Hold'em No Limit - 125/250 (25 ante) - 8 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

UTG: 3,156 (13 bb)
UTG+1: 12,061 (48 bb)
MP: 14,058 (56 bb)
MP+1: 1,700 (7 bb)
CO (Hero): 13,624 (54 bb)
BU: 9,583 (38 bb)
SB: 1,004 (4 bb)
BB: 3,205 (13 bb)

Pre-Flop: (575) Hero is CO with J J
4 players fold, Hero raises to 750, BTN calls 750, 2 players fold

Flop: (2,075) 2 9 5 (2 players)
Hero bets 1,369, BTN calls 1,369

Turn: (4,813) 3 (2 players)
Hero bets 1,588, BTN calls 1,588

River: (7,989) 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets 5,851 (all-in), Hero calls 5,851

Total pot: 19,691

Showdown:
BU shows A 9 (three of a kind, Nines)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 29%, Flop: 21%, Turn: 20%, River: 100%)

CO (Hero) shows J J (two pair, Jacks and Nines)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 71%, Flop: 79%, Turn: 80%, River: 0%)

BU wins 19,691
 
Last edited:
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eetenor

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Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 27/10/27

Easy fold?
on the river if I bet I would only be called by better hands, Check/Check I thought Id have decent chances. Checking could induce a bluff on the missed flush, but was expecting it so much that I (wishfull thinking) didnt consider the trips or straight. The shove should wake me up? OTOH I was having a great moment, winning 4 hands in a row without showdown, so I thought my perceived image was too aggressive.
Winning the hand would have made me chip leader

Betting size-
Not happy with the turn bet. Probably got scared with the straight and thought that with a nine he would have raised...



888Poker, Hold'em No Limit - 125/250 (25 ante) - 8 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

UTG: 3,156 (13 bb)
UTG+1: 12,061 (48 bb)
MP: 14,058 (56 bb)
MP+1: 1,700 (7 bb)
CO (Hero): 13,624 (54 bb)
BU: 9,583 (38 bb)
SB: 1,004 (4 bb)
BB: 3,205 (13 bb)

Pre-Flop: (575) Hero is CO with J J
4 players fold, Hero raises to 750, BTN calls 750, 2 players fold

Flop: (2,075) 2 9 5 (2 players)
Hero bets 1,369, BTN calls 1,369

Turn: (4,813) 3 (2 players)
Hero bets 1,588, BTN calls 1,588

River: (7,989) 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets 5,851 (all-in), Hero calls 5,851

Total pot: 19,691

Showdown:
BU shows A 9 (three of a kind, Nines)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 29%, Flop: 21%, Turn: 20%, River: 100%)

CO (Hero) shows J J (two pair, Jacks and Nines)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 71%, Flop: 79%, Turn: 80%, River: 0%)

BU wins 19,691

Thank you for posting.

I think your study focus from this hand is on sizing.

Your turn sizing is not consistent with your flop sizing.

Your flop sizing narrows the V's range to made hands and high equity hands. We will gets lots of folds with this sizing but we do not want lots of folds in this spot.

The turn sizing then lets the V realize all of their equity. Here we want to size so the V folds some of the equity hands and to pay for chasing if we used that flop size.

Stack sizes are an issue on turn because of our flop sizing.

Having a solid sizing plan based on the V's stack is a skill we all benefit from.

The river call is mandatory if the V has enough frequency of bluffs or over values pairs. Does your player pool do that?
Is it often enough? If they only bluff 10% of the time in a spot like this then we can fold.

Hope this helps
:):)
 
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fundiver199

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Preflop
With an effective stack size of just 38BB a 3BB open is very large. Not the biggest issue in a freeroll, and when you have a strong hand like JJ, that is happy to play for stacks. But opening to 2,5BB or even less is more "standard" and "correct", and why not implement this even in a freeroll, so that you get relevant practice for real money tournaments.

Flop
Standard bet for value, and I dont mind using a slightly large sizing here, since JJ benefit quite a bit from protection. If he fold his KQ to this flop bet, I am totally ok with that outcome. That being said something around 1.000 chips or half pot is probably more "correct" and sets it up for more equal bet sizes on all streets.

Turn
Some gutshots got there, but I still like betting for value, and I would make it slightly larger, so that a river jam would not mean increasing the size substantially again. If you had gone a bit smaller on the flop, and larger turn bet would be possible without obviously committing yourself, which we dont want, because we want him to think, we are bluffing.

River
A 9 or a heart are the cards, we did not want to see, and of course it came a 9. I agree with slowing down and checking now, because I dont think, we can jam and get called by a worse hand often enough, now that we lose to his top pair.

Facing the jam from him its a close and tough spot. In we look at outcomes, then folding will leave you with around 40BB. Calling and losing will leave you with just 14BB, and finally calling and winning will make you the table chip leader, which is nice but not all that different from continuing with 40BB. So considering future play, folding seem like the more attractive option, since calling and winning is not nearly as good, as calling and losing is bad.

But with that being said you see so much crazy stuff in freerolls or micro tournaments like people jamming here with A5 for no reason, that calling is certainly not a big mistake. So mostly it just suck, that the guy got lucky on you and cracked your overpair on the river. If you had sized up on the turn, then at least you charge him to continue and try to draw out on you.
 
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Sidetracked

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1) the player is atrociously bad
2) given the kind of tourney, I think you have to call, as players at these limits can show up with literally any 2 cards in that spot
3) bummer dude...you got very unlucky
 
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Sidetracked

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Dont think the opponent really did anything wrong in this hand?


Maybe it's a little old school, but I think calling a 3X open with A9o is really bad. And then calling flop and turn with a pair of nines.
 
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QA77

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I would bet smaller on the flop and a bigger % bet on the turn. On the river, its unlucky. If the opponent never bluffs, maybe you can find a fold. But I think check calling is fine to catch bluffs. Betting doesn’t seem that bad either since opponent could have 66,77,88,TT.
 
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fundiver199

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Maybe it's a little old school, but I think calling a 3X open with A9o is really bad. And then calling flop and turn with a pair of nines.

I dont think, its "old school", but I think, you are playing way to nitty, if you see anything wrong with BTNs line in this hand. This is a late position confrontation, where ranges are supposed to be very wide. Preflop we absolutely cant fold A9 facing a CO open, so its only a question of, if we just call, or if we put on some pressure by 3-betting. And if you are not calling flop and turn with TPTK, then what are you ever calling with? Like only a set or something? Yes this time Hero had an overpair, but that is like the top 5% of his C-betting range. So of course we cant fold TPTK to a normal C-bet.
 
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Sidetracked

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I dont think, its "old school", but I think, you are playing way to nitty, if you see anything wrong with BTNs line in this hand. This is a late position confrontation, where ranges are supposed to be very wide. Preflop we absolutely cant fold A9 facing a CO open, so its only a question of, if we just call, or if we put on some pressure by 3-betting. And if you are not calling flop and turn with TPTK, then what are you ever calling with? Like only a set or something? Yes this time Hero had an overpair, but that is like the top 5% of his C-betting range. So of course we cant fold TPTK to a normal C-bet.

Peeling the flop with a pair of 9s maybe, but facing a double barrel on the turn? What is hero going to be double barrelling with that isn't ahead of his pair of 9s?
 
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eetenor

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Maybe it's a little old school, but I think calling a 3X open with A9o is really bad. And then calling flop and turn with a pair of nines.


Thank you for posting

Old School implies unbalanced TAG ranges preflop by cutoff and in freerolls that is more common so the V did make an error here. The Hero did not open GTO sizing so the V should not have assumed GTO ranges in a freeroll. Also the BB had a shove size stack so calling A9 was an error in this spot.

The flop bet was again not GTO sizing so the flop call needs to be based on exploit play so again an error. Why an error? Read below.

The next V error should have been on the turn when our Hero put the V all-in and the V made a mistake on flop not considering this as the action Hero would take. Again our Hero chose exploit sizing pre and flop so turn exploit sizing with one pair in this spot only is all-in or check decide.
V has only 1.53 pot on turn. We all should be using that size pot shoves as bluffs and for value.
Our V would then call and we lose the same but our play would then be the best EV line based on our actions pre and flop.

However Hero chose the wrong sizing vs V’s refined turn range. So V calling turn was correct as Hero has now indicated a wider range that A9 may be ahead of. The A is a great blocker vs that wider range. The turn call is correct if the V thinks they can play the river correctly IP. Which they did.

Hope this helps
:):)
 
dallam

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In this situation to a massive 3bb bet I think A9o would only chase so many times, so I would rather fold pre. What I saw post-flop it was all-right from both sides, that was an unlucky outcome, and better luck for you next time.
 
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fundiver199

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Peeling the flop with a pair of 9s maybe, but facing a double barrel on the turn? What is hero going to be double barrelling with that isn't ahead of his pair of 9s?

K9, Q9, J9, T9, 98, heart draws, random bluffs. He was also getting better than 4:1 on the turn, and he had equity against a hand like JJ plus position. If you dont continue on this turn with A9, people can print massive profit against you by barreling off with any two random cards, because you are simply folding way to much. Perhaps you can get away with such an unbalanced play style against extremely nitty and predictable opponents, but against anyone, who have the capability to bluff, you will be annihilated.
 
KKillerss

KKillerss

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Thank you for posting.

I think your study focus from this hand is on sizing.
Hope this helps
:):)

Preflop
With an effective stack size of just 38BB a 3BB open is very large.

1) the player is atrociously bad

I would bet smaller on the flop and a bigger % bet on the turn. .

In this situation to a massive 3bb bet I think A9o would only chase so many times, so I would rather fold pre.


Thanks guys.
Indeed, I need to improve my bet sizing, and the balance in between not to frighten Villains I will be able to exploit, but not to give many odds to the ones that will exploit me.

The calling bluff vs calling the nuts its a bit misty right now. In the moment Im going through an alternate road. Instead of calling high bets of only who is being too LAG and bluff proning, Im just not calling the players that I read as playing more straightforwardly. When in doubt I pay.
 
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fundiver199

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In the moment Im going through an alternate road. Instead of calling high bets of only who is being too LAG and bluff proning, Im just not calling the players that I read as playing more straightforwardly. When in doubt I pay.


In freerolls and the micros its certainly not a bad strategy to default fold bluff catchers on the river, unless you can come up with a good reason to deviate. You are not going to get exploited for doing it, because nobody are good enough or have a large enough sample to figure out, if you are overfolding on the river. You are facing new opponents all the time, most are beginners, and many dont even use a HUD.

The only thing, you want to be carefull about, is folding, when your opponent might actually be betting worse and think, its for value. Letting people accidentally turn their hand into a value bluff against you is just not a thing. But if you only beat a bluff, as in this hand, then sure just fold and dont even worry about it. Its a much better starting point than being to sticky and always paying people off. :)
 
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eetenor

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Im just not calling the players that I read as playing more straightforwardly.

When playing first to act on rivers vs straight forward players only-the bet/ fold is the most effective play not the check /decide.

When we blocker bet the river vs this V type we get value from the hands they would check back if we check but call our bet if we bet.

When we check even straight forward players may bluff more frequently but when they raise us after we bet it is a 90% chance we are beat so easy fold for those odds.

When we blocker bet rivers some of the time our V will have better hands they just call with costing us less as well then if we check and they bet half pot.

As Fundiver said our V may bet weaker value hands when we check causing us to over fold we stop that by blocker betting as well.

Hope this helps
:):)
 
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fundiver199

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When playing first to act on rivers vs straight forward players only-the bet/ fold is the most effective play not the check /decide.

If stacks had been deeper, I could be on board with bet-folding the river in this hand. However with only 6k left behind and an 8k pot I dont think, there was enough stack depth to make that play. If we bet like 1k, we will not get much value, and it will also look so weak, we might induce a raise. Which kind of goes against the whole idea of "blocking". If on the other hand we bet something like 3k, we will lose to much of our remaining stack, if we then fold.
 
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eetenor

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If stacks had been deeper, I could be on board with bet-folding the river in this hand. However with only 6k left behind and an 8k pot I dont think, there was enough stack depth to make that play. If we bet like 1k, we will not get much value, and it will also look so weak, we might induce a raise. Which kind of goes against the whole idea of "blocking". If on the other hand we bet something like 3k, we will lose to much of our remaining stack, if we then fold.


Thank you for responding.

My points were not regarding this hand- only that bet/fold vs straight forward players is the better play vs check /decide as our main strategy. As always SPR can limit our actions as was the case in this hand. That is why we need to have a sizing plan from our first action onward.

As played I agree with your check /fold this river to V action. I always lean to stack protect vs hero call when V are this straight forward.
That is why I gave your post the thumbs up :D:D


:):)
 
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