Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 26/16/2

Hero raised pre and went to the flop 3-ways. On a VERY dynamic board, what should HERO do when facing a donk bet from SB Villain and then a raise from BB Villain?

BTN: 40.75 BB
SB: 43.87 BB VPIP = 41 PR = 10 AF = 2 (377 hands)
BB: 84.75 BB VPIP = 26 PFR = 16 AF = 2 (241 hands)
UTG: 27.72 BB
UTG+1: 50.92 BB
MP: 39.92 BB
Hero (MP+1): 39.42 BB
CO: 43.5 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A♠ A♦

fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 2.5 BB, fold, fold, SB calls 2 BB, BB calls 1.5 BB

Flop: (7.5 BB, 3 players) T♥ J♦ Q♥
SB bets 3.75 BB, BB raises to 11.25 BB, WHAT SHOULD HERO DO??

Since SB seems to be a calling station and the flop hits villains ranges pretty well it would be interesting to know with what hands villain reraises the flop. There will be sets/two-pair/bottom pair+draw type hands or straight/flush type draws taking the line BB took. There's a good chance both will call If you jam and you don't look too good If they do.
As played fold.

Bet more preflop imo, 2,5BB is too little since SB is a calling station and BB seems to be at least half-competent.

Originally Posted by grafkarow

Since SB seems to be a calling station and the flop hits villains ranges pretty well it would be interesting to know with what hands villain reraises the flop. There will be sets/two-pair/bottom pair+draw type hands or straight/flush type draws taking the line BB took. There's a good chance both will call If you jam and you don't look too good If they do.
As played fold.

Bet more preflop imo, 2,5BB is too little since SB is a calling station and BB seems to be at least half-competent.

Pretty much this. It is frankly A quite marginal high variance spot. If you get it in you likely have some equity but also some outs might be counterfeited.
I would probably hope I would be able to fold.

It also depends on how much time you have invested. But in general we will be behind a decent amount of time and have only invested 2.5 BB so far. Not the end of the world. It’s just that it’s Aces

I would also make it 3x at least PF

complex, but says the instructions that is all in all in, but provides for a standard to do is complicated, to all-in with AA is the best option!

This is just about the worst possible flop for AA and the worst possible action, so its fine to let it go and cut your losses.

Originally Posted by fundiver199

This is just about the worst possible flop for AA and the worst possible action, so its fine to let it go and cut your losses.

I agree - even when we peel a card here if the SB does not shove there are no good turn cards for us besides a King. If we had the Ace of hearts maaaaaybe we consider peeling one card off here but even then we are generally wasting chips. Even an Ace isnt a very good card for us, it completes the straight for tons of Kx one pair combos villans could easily have. This is a freeroll, so it's a great spot for us to take note of these spots and start developing good game habits. We could be ahead here, but this is just the kind of board where our opponents have all the straights, all the two pair combos, all the one pair + draw combos - it's just ugly for our AAs. Find good discipline, stop yourself from going broke in these spots where others are stacking off and find the fold! Hope this helps!

Thanks for all the help! I like the idea of raising > 2.5bb; however, I question if raising 3bb would have the same result. Raising > 4bb seems like I am basically playing my hand with the Aces showing. Hmmm will put some thought to this feedback. Thank you.

Spoiler alert!

Click to Reveal!

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A♠ A♦

fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 2.5 BB, fold, fold, SB calls 2 BB, BB calls 1.5 BB

Flop: (7.5 BB, 3 players) T♥ J♦ Q♥
SB bets 3.75 BB, BB raises to 11.25 BB, Hero folds, SB calls 7.5 BB

Turn: (30 BB, 2 players) 3♦
SB checks, BB checks

River: (30 BB, 2 players) 9♣
SB bets 1 BB, BB calls 1 BB

SB shows one pair Nines 7♥ 9♥
BB shows one pair Jacks 6♣ J♣ and wins

Originally Posted by 0815am

I would also make it 3x at least PF

raising 3x instead of 2.5x won't Change anything in this Hand. he has 41% VPIP in almost 400 Hands so half a blind more won't get him to fold crappy Hands.

Originally Posted by scubed

Thanks for all the help! I like the idea of raising > 2.5bb; however, I question if raising 3bb would have the same result. Raising > 4bb seems like I am basically playing my hand with the Aces showing. Hmmm will put some thought to this feedback. Thank you.

it's a tricky spot. if you raise too much, you scare People out of the pot, if you raise too small, the blinds get good odds to call with Hands you won't have in their range….
if you get Action like this you can only guess if they are Maniacs or have a decent Hand.


in a freeroll their is Nothing to lose so I would call here. even against 2 pair we have decent Outs and I saw People go nuts with KJo in those spots…..

So basically SB had a combo draw, and BB had a 1-pair hand, which he turned into a retarded bluff. It is for sure tilting to find out, that we folded the winning hand to a donkey like this. But poker is a long term game, and if we run this situation 100 times against random opponents, folding AA on the flop is going to give us the best results.

Also people playing like BB in this hand might win a lot of small pots, but they will lose most of the big ones, and in the long run they will be big losers in the game. So its ok to let them bluff us now and then.

Moreover even in this situation, which was the absolute best case scenario, we still had less than 50% equity on the flop. So while calling would have been profitable 3-ways against their exact holdings, we did not give up a massive amount of chip EV by folding on the flop. And we preserved our stack, which is also important in tournaments.

So I still think, this was a good fold. But I would of course make a note on that BB player and not give it a lot of respect, next time I see him raise the flop. Apparently he is able to raise with any "piece of the board", but we had to see a showdown, before we could know, that this was the case.

Even in a freeroll we should assume, our opponents use a somewhat reasonable strategy, until we have actual proof of the opposite. Getting into a "oh its a freeroll, so I call" mentality will just create bad habits, as Jon Poker has already said.

Originally Posted by fundiver199

Even in a freeroll we should assume, our opponents use a somewhat reasonable strategy, until we have actual proof of the opposite. Getting into a "oh its a freeroll, so I call" mentality will just create bad habits, as Jon Poker has already said.

The first part is a great view on how to evaluate the hand.
The part I quoted is golden, especially for beginners and freerollers. It backs my View and mindset on playing freerolls in general.

Originally Posted by scubed

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 26/16/2

Hero raised pre and went to the flop 3-ways. On a VERY dynamic board, what should HERO do when facing a donk bet from SB Villain and then a raise from BB Villain?

BTN: 40.75 BB
SB: 43.87 BB VPIP = 41 PR = 10 AF = 2 (377 hands)
BB: 84.75 BB VPIP = 26 PFR = 16 AF = 2 (241 hands)
UTG: 27.72 BB
UTG+1: 50.92 BB
MP: 39.92 BB
Hero (MP+1): 39.42 BB
CO: 43.5 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A♠ A♦

fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 2.5 BB, fold, fold, SB calls 2 BB, BB calls 1.5 BB

Flop: (7.5 BB, 3 players) T♥ J♦ Q♥
SB bets 3.75 BB, BB raises to 11.25 BB, WHAT SHOULD HERO DO??

so please tell us, what did ypu do? what happened?

Originally Posted by fundiver199

Getting into a "oh its a freeroll, so I call" mentality will just create bad habits, as Jon Poker has already said.

that's why I don't Play them. they won't improve your game because most People playing them are terrible and you will kinda adopt to their playstyle


their is a nice Topic About it, something like 'freerolls - more harm than good'

Originally Posted by Veritas

that's why I don't Play them. they won't improve your game because most People playing them are terrible and you will kinda adopt to their playstyle


their is a nice Topic About it, something like 'freerolls - more harm than good'

Well I argue that it's you who decides whether you adopt horrible play or learn how to capitalise on it. I was on the FT of yesterdays CC freeroll and can't say that I saw much horrible play there.

Originally Posted by Worak

Well I argue that it's you who decides whether you adopt horrible play or learn how to capitalise on it. I was on the FT of yesterdays CC freeroll and can't say that I saw much horrible play there.

well if you are surrounded by bad Players, how would you be able to get better? People shoving any 2 and you call with A2o because it's 'EV+ play' but overall it's still a bad call. it's kinda hard to describe, but you will become a better Player if you climb in stakes and not by Winning freerolls.


and I'm not Talking About the FT, more About the early to mid stage.
also I would not compare the CC freerolls to pokerstars MTT step1 freerolls or something like that. CC freerolls and free to enter, but something exclusivs and not accessible for everyone.
still a lot of horrible Plays, but a lot better than most other freerolls


and just because it's not a horrible Play for you doesn't mean it wasn't horrible :P

Yeah, it depends on perspective.
When I analyse my MTTs I always find spots where I'm involved in horrible play.
Finding my own leaks and profit from other players mistakes is a huge part of my game.
I understand that there is a danger of picking up bad habits but here at CC there is so much info to learn from that I know that my range for calling monkey-shoves is tight enough

edit...btw A2o is way Off

Originally Posted by gon4iypes

so please tell us, what did ypu do? what happened?

I put a Spoiler on this post to show what happened: https://www.cardschat.com/showpost5441866-post7.html

Here it is again in case you missed it.

Spoiler alert!

Click to Reveal!

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop:(pot: 1.5 BB)Hero has A♠ A♦

fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 2.5 BB, fold, fold, SB calls 2 BB, BB calls 1.5 BB

Flop:(7.5 BB, 3 players) T♥ J♦ Q♥
SB bets 3.75 BB, BB raises to 11.25 BB, Hero folds, SB calls 7.5 BB

Turn:(30 BB, 2 players) 3♦
SB checks, BB checks

River:(30 BB, 2 players) 9♣
SB bets 1 BB, BB calls 1 BB

SB shows one pair Nines 7♥ 9♥
BB shows one pair Jacks 6♣ J♣ and wins

Originally Posted by Veritas

that's why I don't Play them. they won't improve your game because most People playing them are terrible and you will kinda adopt to their playstyle

I have found that one of the benefits of struggling through the silly play in freerolls is to become numbed for bad beats. It helps me practice to not be results oriented, but instead long term focused.

[QUOTE=scubed;5438952]Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 26/16/2

Hero raised pre and went to the flop 3-ways. On a VERY dynamic board, what should HERO do when facing a donk bet from SB Villain and then a raise from BB Villain?

BTN: 40.75 BB
SB: 43.87 BB VPIP = 41 PR = 10 AF = 2 (377 hands)
BB: 84.75 BB VPIP = 26 PFR = 16 AF = 2 (241 hands)
UTG: 27.72 BB
UTG+1: 50.92 BB
MP: 39.92 BB
Hero (MP+1): 39.42 BB
CO: 43.5 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A♠ A♦

fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 2.5 BB, fold, fold, SB calls 2 BB, BB calls 1.5 BB

Flop: (7.5 BB, 3 players) T♥ J♦ Q♥
SB bets 3.75 BB, BB raises to 11.25 BB, WHAT SHOULD HERO DO??[/QUOTE

Hello,


I recommend a larger preflop raise to expoit your opponents loose play. A larger bet will also help you isolate a single opponent.