$Freeroll NLHE MTT: ICM says to fold here right?

[tzuriel]

Trying to make as many good decisions as possible. I still had 52 BB so assumed there would be a better spot. Was that correct? Cause Q♠ T♠ doesn't look so good after a shove and a call!
NL Holdem $0+$0 (300.00BB)
HJ ($15785)
CO ($22396)
HERO ($15892)
SB ($4692)
BB ($94108)
UTG ($8641)

Dealt to Hero: Q♠ T♠

UTG Calls $300, HJ Folds, CO Folds, HERO Raises To $780, SB Folds, BB Raises To $94108 (allin), UTG Calls $8311 (allin), HERO Folds

 

[fundiver199]

2,6BB is a fine size to use when raising first in. But when someone have already limped, you typically want to go to at least 4BB to isolate them and give them a bad price to call with a range, which is usually going to be very weak. If they do call, it also makes it easier to win a big pot postflop, when you have position on someone, who is usually a bad player, since good players rarely limp.

BB jamming for 53BB over a limp and your small raise looks pretty wild. He also has a huge stack, so this looks like a maniac on a heater. However the issue is, that even if he has a crappy hand like K6s or A4o, you are still behind. And if he has a pair like 55-88, you are only flipping, and you are getting a very bad price. So even without considering, that the limper has already called, you clearly have to let this hand go.

 

[kkonicke]

Based on the action, easy fold. Also agree with fundiver on the raise size. At this stack depth, I'd probably go either 3.5x or 4x raise. I do agree with the raise to isolate the limper, I probably would take this line as well. Once the BB jams it's an easy fold though. You are almost never going to be ahead here and you'll be dominated a lot. That's not even considering UTG limped and then called the jam, which could be AA/KK if he's any good...but even a bad player will often have broadway type hands here like KQ suited that have you smashed as well.

 

[tzuriel]

Thanks you guys. I usually do size up one more BB per limper over my standard 2.5x raise. Maybe this was a misclick. But I guess it saved me some chips lol. BB shoved with 99, BTW. I left off the results to focus on my decision which seems to have been correct!

 

[300HPGOD]

Also with this hand keep in mind that SB has a shove stack (or what should be a shove stack, in freerolls people will misplay short stacks often) so when you make this raise you have to be aware of potential jams behind you from smaller stacks. In this specific spot Q10 suited is not a hand I would like to be calling off when 15 BBs out of my 52BBs puts it in. I would almost always be behind there and our position advantage in gone since it is pre flop all in. These types of raises and then having to fold to jam stacks shoving behind you can bleed chips quickly so keep that in mind in future spots like these.

I hate to bring this up because what I am about to say is situation specific and I dont want to confuse people but I disagree with others saying the raise should be bigger as I would say it depends on the opponents here in this freeroll. In a normal tournament with normal opponents I completely agree with others saying the raise should be bigger and agree with their sizing. However, in freerolls a lot the UTG limper is never folding (which is fine since we are isolating) but also the people behind rarely fold, especially a large stack like BB has. In these cases I avoid Q10 suited type hands knowing that if I raise here it is likely going to be called anyway by multiple people (again, let me be clear this is certain opponents only and usually freeroll opponents) so when I am getting involved with a hand like this in this spot I am raising close to what you did knowing we are going multi way anyway and am only raising pre to take the lead the in the hand. I dont want any of the above to be overused, just saying if you play freerolls a lot you will run into many opponents who play 40-70% of hands pre flop and arent going anywhere even if you raise it to 4BB. Thats fine if we want to play a big pot, I dont think in this specific spot we want to play a big hand with the chip leader with a possibly dominated hand even if we will be in position.

 

[eetenor]

Also with this hand keep in mind that SB has a shove stack (or what should be a shove stack, in freerolls people will misplay short stacks often) so when you make this raise you have to be aware of potential jams behind you from smaller stacks. In this specific spot Q10 suited is not a hand I would like to be calling off when 15 BBs out of my 52BBs puts it in. I would almost always be behind there and our position advantage in gone since it is pre flop all in. These types of raises and then having to fold to jam stacks shoving behind you can bleed chips quickly so keep that in mind in future spots like these.

I hate to bring this up because what I am about to say is situation specific and I dont want to confuse people but I disagree with others saying the raise should be bigger as I would say it depends on the opponents here in this freeroll. In a normal tournament with normal opponents I completely agree with others saying the raise should be bigger and agree with their sizing. However, in freerolls a lot the UTG limper is never folding (which is fine since we are isolating) but also the people behind rarely fold, especially a large stack like BB has. In these cases I avoid Q10 suited type hands knowing that if I raise here it is likely going to be called anyway by multiple people (again, let me be clear this is certain opponents only and usually freeroll opponents) so when I am getting involved with a hand like this in this spot I am raising close to what you did knowing we are going multi way anyway and am only raising pre to take the lead the in the hand. I dont want any of the above to be overused, just saying if you play freerolls a lot you will run into many opponents who play 40-70% of hands pre flop and arent going anywhere even if you raise it to 4BB. Thats fine if we want to play a big pot, I dont think in this specific spot we want to play a big hand with the chip leader with a possibly dominated hand even if we will be in position.

Thank you for posting

It is a strong point you are making about fold frequencies versus typical fields in freerolls.
We can also use the same paradigm in larger buy-in tournaments when our table is full of players who play similarly.

When the highest EV comes from exploitable tendencies we can and should adapt as you suggest to those tendencies.

Great analysis thanks for sharing it.

 

[fundiver199]

(again, let me be clear this is certain opponents only and usually freeroll opponents) so when I am getting involved with a hand like this in this spot I am raising close to what you did knowing we are going multi way anyway and am only raising pre to take the lead the in the hand.

If we expect to have almost no fold equity, then I prefer to limp behind with a hand like QTs. In my opinion initiative dont really matter, if the hand goes multiway, and the opponents are bad. They are going to be donk betting or check-raising left and right, they dont even know, what a "range advantage" or a "capped range" is, and they are not folding any pair or draw to a C-bet, and often not even two overcards.

So if we expect this kind of dynamic, then why not just do, what everyone else at the table do? Try to see a cheap flop and get paid, if we manage to hit a big hand. We have all learned, that aggression is the key to success in poker. But if aggression does not really do anything for our particular hand in a particular situation, we should not be afraid to sometimes take a more passive approach

 

[300HPGOD]

If we expect to have almost no fold equity, then I prefer to limp behind with a hand like QTs. In my opinion initiative dont really matter, if the hand goes multiway, and the opponents are bad. They are going to be donk betting or check-raising left and right, they dont even know, what a "range advantage" or a "capped range" is, and they are not folding any pair or draw to a C-bet, and often not even two overcards.

So if we expect this kind of dynamic, then why not just do, what everyone else at the table do? Try to see a cheap flop and get paid, if we manage to hit a big hand. We have all learned, that aggression is the key to success in poker. But if aggression does not really do anything for our particular hand in a particular situation, we should not be afraid to sometimes take a more passive approach

You may be right in the sense that it is better to limp but I still prefer to raise if playing the hand because I think a limp pre may open the door to players behind us raising out of the blinds where if we didnt raise they will only call. A lot of players will rarely 3 bet but will raise often when there are multiple limpers in front of them. I agree they dont know what a capped range is but they will understand the basics of it meaning when they see me limp behind here they do know I never/very rarely have AA, KK, QQ, JJ and with that I might lose a little bit of fold equity post flop. We know a lot of freeroll players are stations but they are little less of stations post flop than they are pre flop so I want those big hands to still be possibly in my range as they will be smart enough ( I think) to discount those when I limp pre. Thirdly, I like raising because even though they might be donk betting they are at least more likely to check to me on the flop when I raise vs if I am a limper here. Maybe the donk bet is fine since if we are probably going to play fit or fold post if we limp pre here but I would still rather have a better chance at checks on the flop to us and only be paying 1.5 to 2 BBs more pre for that advantage.

 

[FernA9ndo]

BB and UTG are playing agressive, so you have to play this hand passive and fold. You are correct.