$Freeroll NLHE MTT: Flopped 2 Pair Vs Big Ace L/A - FT

[BearPlay]

$Freeroll NLHE MTT: Flopped 2 Pair Vs Big Ace L/A - FT

Final table of a CC freeroll. 4 players left. I was BB with QTo, CO is L/A.

Merge Network Cardschat $100 Freeroll No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t500.00/t1000.00 Blinds + t100.00 - 4 players

Hero (BB): t23719.00 M = 12.48
naruto12345 (CO): t50942.00 M = 26.81
freeringostarr (BTN): t68543.00 M = 36.08
ArjonCP (SB): t24296.00 M = 12.79

Pre Flop: (t1900) Hero is BB with T

Q

naruto12345 raises to t2000.00, 2 folds, Hero calls t1000

Flop: (t4900) T

4

Q

(2 players)


Now what?

Spoiler

Hero bets t2450.00, naruto12345 calls t2450

Turn: (t9800) 3

(2 players)
Hero bets t4900.00, naruto12345 calls t4900

River: (t19600) J

(2 players)
Hero bets t9800.00, naruto12345 raises to t41492 all in, Hero calls t4469 all in

Final Pot: t48138
Hero shows T

Q

naruto12345 shows K

A

(Ace High Straight)
naruto12345 wins t20915
naruto12345 wins t27223.00

After the villain called my turn bet, I had a strong feeling that he was holding AK. And here comes the J on the river. Too late to muck, as I had only a few chips left.

Not to be results-oriented, but in hand analysis, should I have jammed the flop and/or turn? I thought that I was making big enough bets for him to back off, but, after all, it was naruto hehe.

Thanks!

 

[WiZZiM]

check/raise the flop, you have a read that he's "LAG" so let him bet the flop with whatever he has (which is likely to be weighted towards good hands, making the call preflop pretty bad) then put the hurt on him, if you stab here, weaker part of his range may just fold, which is a disaster. if he calls your flop raise, you are then setup to jam in any turn card.

 

[BearPlay]

Ahh, ok Wizz, I see the merits of a C/R on the flop and then jamming the turn.

Question - you said that the call preflop was pretty bad, are you saying that I should have mucked the QT pre- from the BB?

Thanks for your feedback, Wizz!

 

[WiZZiM]

I'd prefer to call here with things that don't get dominated a lot. Like, this should be his tightest position in the game, having to raise through 3 players, he might be loose, but likely has a tighter range here than anywhere. You should be paying attention to the frequency that he raises in this position compared to the button. i just think it's a bit of a weak defend, with a hand that is likely to be dominated a lot, and your always going to find it hard to play postflop since we're oop vs an aggressive player.

basically, we want to have a plan on how to deal with this guy postflop. Usually i'll attack dry boards if i do call in spots like this, with check/raise bluffs or donking with nothing. whatever it is, we have to plan for the times where we miss the flop and the board is dry (unlikely to hit either player), those are the boards we need to attack on, because whenever we hit top pair, we should be thinking about pot control/bluff catching. I'm thinking this way because i think his range is tighter here than you probably think it is. i know from the league ringo plays loose, so raising through him alone is hard work, i'd suspect villian knows he is loose and again, would have a tighter range here.

 

[BearPlay]

Ok, that makes perfect sense and reminds me of something that I am currently reading by Sun-Tzu and the similarities of war and poker.

To be completely honest, I did *not* have a plan whatsoever. Normally speaking, I would have quickly mucked QTo, but given my position in the BB, a small FT, and a L/A opponent, I thought that I could see a flop for cheap. Once I flopped 2 pair, I thought I had it in the bag. My mistake. Slowly but surely, I'm getting this.

Thanks Wiz. I appreciate your taking the time to share your thoughts with me.

(BTW, I agree with you about ringo and naruto... ringo went on to win this one and did a stellar job.. as well as naruto.. but you do realize that in this hand, it was naruto whom I was up against, right? I know his style and his play a lot more than I know ringo's)

 

[Arjonius]

Like WiZ said, calling pre- is okay if you have a plan, which can be flop-dependent.

As for whether to lead the flop or go for the C/R, I think it depends on how eager / willing you are to play a big pot. If you lead out, he's likely to call fairly wide, obviously including 2 overs, so obviously any Q, and quite possibly second pair. He'll also cbet a lot of these is you check, probably for about the same half-pot. But he'll then fold many of them to your C/R.

So a key question seems to be which situation you prefer, he calls and you go to the turn with 9800 in the pot, or he folds and you win the pot of 7350. Of course, these aren't the only possibilities, but since they seem the most likely for your two possible lines, they're the first ones I'd consider. I'd lead, but that's based on my style, so it not necessarily better for you, or even better at all.

Betting the river and pot-committing yourself when you have a strong feeling you're beat means your action wasn't consistent with your read. Don't tell yourself you have a strong feeling and then ignore it unless you have good reasons to.

Plus if you're going to pot-commit yourself, then why not shove? If it happens that he'll call 10k into a 30k pot with a hand you beat e.g. AQ, how often will he fold if you make it 14k into 34k instead?

 

[RamdeeBen]

Calling pre flop is fine.

Really really hate your donk lead on the flop vs a LAG, he's always nearly going to bet for you. I'd either go for a x/c or x/r on the flop although I think I'm always nearly going for the x/c line on the flop and then check raise all-in on the turn because we're OOP, we have two pair and he's likely always going to barrel most turns with all his draws/pairs etc.

 

[WiZZiM]

Calling pre flop is fine.

Really really hate your donk lead on the flop vs a LAG, he's always nearly going to bet for you. I'd either go for a x/c or x/r on the flop although I think I'm always nearly going for the x/c line on the flop and then check raise all-in on the turn because we're OOP, we have two pair and he's likely always going to barrel most turns with all his draws/pairs etc.

yeah i actually didn't consider a check/call very highly on the flop.

i actually like the line of check/call, like ram has mentioned here.

 

[BearPlay]

@Arj - You're right, I was inconsistent with my words. What I meant to say was that when I saw the river spike a J, I had that sinking feeling that was the card he needed. At that point, I had 14,269 chips and I should have mucked or shoved. Instead, I bet weakly, with 9800.

@Wizz/Randee/Arj - The more that I look at this hand, the more that I realize how badly I played it. I'm usually more of a straight shooter. When I have the cards, I bet them, which is why I led out on the flop. But your points ring true. When I am OOP, against an aggressive opponent such as Naruto, I should have let him do the work for me. I really like the x/c and the x/r lines that you suggested.

That said, my crash was on the turn. Had I jammed the turn, I feel like I would have had this.

Admittedly, I'm still fine-tuning my postflop play with a balance between passivity and overaggression. Your analysis here goes a long way towards helping me define those parameters.

I really appreciate the feedback!

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

I may be a nit in defending my blinds, admittedly. 4 handed with an M=12 I might fold this hand preflop, it would depend on the recent history and how much they've been attacking my blinds and how much I've been folding or playing back...but I can tell you I'd definitely flat with QJ suited so... in all reality your flatting range is not that different from mine; I do like to have the suited-ness as a backup and a frequency limiter when I'm defending with the bottom of my range.


Now...here we are on the flop and if you really think he is a LAG you don't ever bet this flop. Either check-call or check-raise based on your goals and plans for the hand.


If you check-call your new goal should be to take it down on the turn.

* by the way I totally identify with you admitting you didn't have a plan. I'm trying to have a plan for each hand lately and it has improved my game so much...but still I will occasionally find myself making decisions without a clear plan, or having to scrap a plan part way through and develop a new "Plan B" on the fly.

 

[horizon12]

When stack 20bb and OOP call is not possible. If i know what villain LAG we can 3bet him and fold if he shove, also be profitably shove this hand..

About your game in flop this check/call because bet in this flop most time you get fold, In this hand only problem here is the big bets, need to correct size bets so as not to be tied to pot with a marginal hand..