$Freeroll NLHE MTT Deep Stacked: FLOPPED QUADS..BET RAISE or SLOW PLAY

doncaster

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We are all chipped up at this stage of the tournament.SB and BB 1000/2000.UTG bets 5000.
I call with 7d7s.SB folds,BB calls.
Flop 7h7c8c.
BB checks UTG bets half his stack.
Do I flat call or raise?
I decided to raise and BB calls as does UTG.
Turn card 10c.UTG goes all in.
What is my decision ??
 
Propane Goat

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Stack sizes are generally helpful with analyzing hands.

Typically when you flop a huge monster it's ok to slow play because in almost all cases you are way ahead of anything else that the villains have or are even drawing to. I don't know what the odds are of being in a situation where you flop quads and allow a free card or two, only to be beat by a straight flush or higher quads but it has to be extremely low.

Let's take a minute and think about what ranges of hands that the villains could have, in particular the UTG player. The absolute best he could have post-flop is pocket 8's, in which case he flopped a full house. He bet pre-flop UTG which usually indicates strength, so it's also possible that he has AA down to QQ or a little lower for two pair depending on the type of player he is. He could also have AcKc which would make sense given that he shoved on the turn, he could have made the Ace high flush, but since he bet half his stack post-flop a full house or two pair A's and 8's is probably more likely.

You crush all of these hands, so I would call his shove and see if the BB also calls, and see what the river card is. In almost all cases it would be good to bet for value into a side pot after the river if the BB is still in the hand and still has chips to play with. I probably wouldn't re-shove and try to isolate UTG here, you already know what kind of hand you have, unlike a situation where you have AA pre-flop and a smaller stack shoves, then you re-shove so that it's just you and one other HU to the showdown.

My thought is that if you have a hand post-flop that is almost unbeatable and other people are aggressing, you want to let them continue, I would be interested to see what others have to say on this.
 
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trekmaster

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From the point that your asking it should be quite easy to decide. There has already been bets, raises and calls to all this add an allin before your turn to act. Only thing left is to go allin.
 
Rldetheflop

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Stack sizes here help for sure. I am a little confused about one thing. If UTG bets half his stack and you raise shouldn't UTG be all-in?

My initial reaction would be why would we want to chase BB out of the pot but by the time it gets to him the pot would be huge so he would probably want to continue since he did check/call a bet and a raise on the flop raising would probably get more chips in and perhaps we can give him pretty good odds to call a shove or vbet on the river (again not sure what stack sizes are).
 
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i will just call there u already know that the original raiser is commitited by betting haf of his chips, so why no calling hopping for the 3rd player to come along.
 
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usually your best chance to make a big pot is on the turn. . online players call, and call and call, so when i get a big hand i always push it hard even quads , you dont know what they have or if they have became married to their hand, tax em , if they fold they fold but got to try.
 
doncaster

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thanks for all your interest.
BB had 6c9c and the UTG raiser had AcAh.
Final showdown...BB had straight flush.
UTG had AAA77.
I had 7777.....
both UTG and myself were eliminated ......sigh......
 
Propane Goat

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thanks for all your interest.
BB had 6c9c and the UTG raiser had AcAh.
Final showdown...BB had straight flush.
UTG had AAA77.
I had 7777.....
both UTG and myself were eliminated ......sigh......

See, this is the problem we all have with fish who call raises with hands that are trash, then get lucky and complete a monster. This is one of those hands where everyone involved goes all-in and all but one usually hit the rail, don't worry about it.
 
Michael Paler

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We are all chipped up at this stage of the tournament.SB and BB 1000/2000.UTG bets 5000.
I call with 7d7s.SB folds,BB calls.
Flop 7h7c8c.
BB checks UTG bets half his stack.
Do I flat call or raise?
I decided to raise and BB calls as does UTG.
Turn card 10c.UTG goes all in.
What is my decision ??

thanks for all your interest.
BB had 6c9c and the UTG raiser had AcAh.
Final showdown...BB had straight flush.
UTG had AAA77.
I had 7777.....
both UTG and myself were eliminated ......sigh......

See, this is the problem we all have with fish who call raises with hands that are trash, then get lucky and complete a monster. This is one of those hands where everyone involved goes all-in and all but one usually hit the rail, don't worry about it.

Fish? I'm not so sure...

1.) He was getting a discount to call preflop with a two-gap suited connector for only 2.5 the big blind. Not really that bad, yet I would think this was a very good spot for a squeeze play.

2.) Flops 15 outs against a possible set/bigger flush/full house.

3.) Looks at UTG betting out in the face of all this; would you puke half your stack with flopped trips or a full house, or slow play it? Right, slow play it, so a 1/2 stack bet kind of says "Standard C-bet/draw/over pair"; flush draw is 9 outs, over pair is 2. He has 15. Probably thought "c-bet with air or overpair"

4.) What would you most likely re-raise with on the button if the UTG bets out 1/2 stack as a standard C-bet? A flush draw or a bluff. You would flat call with a set or better, as you do not want to scare away the BB, who is yet to react. (7-7-7-7, why did you raise it there?)

5.) This is where it gets interesting; UTG bets, button raises...BB is getting what pot odds with 15 outs? (it's 32.6% with one card to come, 54.1% if all in with turn/river to come); What were his pot odds? Better than 3-1? They had to be, or close to it with the implied odds; if he had hit just the st8 the only threat would be the full house or a rivered flush and he knew that neither of you had that range.

15,500 pot, 7750 bet, 7750 re-raise (15,500 total bet by you?), 38,750 (46,500 if UTG flat calls raise) for a 15,500 call; 3-1 pot odds on the button. Easy call if that was the raise you made.


I think he might have been been pretty sure of the range of hands that you both would make these actions with, so he bounced that off the pot odds for a flop flat call and then struck solid gold.

Nothing you could do. Your cooler ran into a better cooler, lol. Although I have no idea why you raised the UTG flop C-bet - that could well scare away the BB and/or the UTG.
 
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Propane Goat

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Fish? I'm not so sure...

1.) He was getting a discount to call preflop with a two-gap suited connector for only 2.5 the big blind. Not really that bad, yet I would think this was a very good spot for a squeeze play.

2.) Flops 15 outs against a possible set/bigger flush/full house.

3.) Looks at UTG betting out in the face of all this; would you puke half your stack with flopped trips or a full house, or slow play it? Right, slow play it, so a 1/2 stack bet kind of says "Standard C-bet/draw/over pair"; flush draw is 9 outs, over pair is 2. He has 15. Probably thought "c-bet with air or overpair"

4.) What would you most likely re-raise with on the button if the UTG bets out 1/2 stack as a standard C-bet? A flush draw or a bluff. You would flat call with a set or better, as you do not want to scare away the BB, who is yet to react. (7-7-7-7, why did you raise it there?)

5.) This is where it gets interesting; UTG bets, button raises...BB is getting what pot odds with 15 outs? (it's 32.6% with one card to come, 54.1% if all in with turn/river to come); What were his pot odds? Better than 3-1? They had to be, or close to it with the implied odds; if he had hit just the st8 the only threat would be the full house or a rivered flush and he knew that neither of you had that range.

15,500 pot, 7750 bet, 7750 re-raise (15,500 total bet by you?), 38,750 (46,500 if UTG flat calls raise) for a 15,500 call; 3-1 pot odds on the button. Easy call if that was the raise you made.


I think he might have been been pretty sure of the range of hands that you both would make these actions with, so he bounced that off the pot odds for a flop flat call and then struck solid gold.

Nothing you could do. Your cooler ran into a better cooler, lol. Although I have no idea why you raised the UTG flop C-bet - that could well scare away the BB and/or the UTG.

Very informative, as you can tell I'm not at that level yet. Would calling raises in the BB with hands like 96 suited be a net loser over the long term though? It seems like it's very difficult to connect with the board like he did on this one.
 
Michael Paler

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Very informative, as you can tell I'm not at that level yet. Would calling raises in the BB with hands like 96 suited be a net loser over the long term though? It seems like it's very difficult to connect with the board like he did on this one.

It would be a loser in the long term, against AA or 77 ran heads up or in a 3 way. Even if he had just struck 2 pair, a paired board would kill it (well, against the AA, anyway, 77 would be toast). Still, it has value if you catch a good flop - and you would have to if OOP. So for a discount or in position, it's not too bad, IMO. Unsuited, it losses the back up flush, so I would not have called with it in the BB unless suited. Button, I might call any two cards if I think I can use position and bluff on the right board/players. And you do not want to play scared or too tight, so you have to play the so-called "speculative" hands sometimes. Keep in mind a cash player might say otherwise (any out there reading this, please chime in), MTT is a bit different. You cannot be a nit for long in an MTT, usually; everyone can play around you, knowing you only have big cards.

In this instance, had he tried a squeeze play, he only could get rid of the 77, as the AA was UTG and might have shoved. Then what do you have to do? Fold, right? Yet as it played out he was 2.07-1 hand odds and getting 3-1 on a call. Still, he could have been a fish, a broken clock is accurate twice a day, lol.
 

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doncaster

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quads

thanks for all the info and thoughts and advice.As you can all see there are many ways to play any 2 cards depending on position and cash/mtt poker.
Last night I came 3rd in a tournament .Yes i was soo lucky when my AK suited ran in to AA and I flopped a straight.Doubled me uo when I was in 28th position with 27 players to cash.Took me to 5th and from there reached 1st until a 3 way allin with my KK knocked me out eventually.
Thats poker baby !
 
Poker Orifice

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OMG there is sooo much convuluted B.S. in this thread it is making me sick!

Propane Goat, trust me on this.. you don't want to be at 'this level' (because he is feeding you a sh__load of sh__ here & I think he actually believes his own sh__ here).

Michael, did you even read anyone else's posts (before putting down all that complete dribble)?
OP says UTG cbets half his stack... BTN raises.. BB calls. 'IF' he's cbet out half his stack a) they are NOT 'chipped up' as OP has initially suggested in this thread (ffs.. UTG raised 2.5bb's pre.. then Cbet '1/2 his stack'.. lets say for the sake of stupidness.. on the outside it's a POT-SIZED BET... 8.5bb's . & "IF" he actually cbet half his stack he's only left himself ~1/4 pot sized bet for turn? WTF?..
Now if HERO otb actually Raises UTG's cbet... how in the feck can UTG 'call' & still have something to shove turn with? (if you read Ride's post you'd be onto that). Instead you spout off just a sh__load of garbage that honestly if eff'n ridiculous.

What bothers me is >> a new player reads that garbage & actually buys into thinking that you even have a remote clue of what you're talking about when clearly you don't.

What do they say? Pull the cotton out of the ears & stick it where?

Or maybe I've just been levelled here (again) and your responses were just a level:confused:
 
Poker Orifice

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In this instance, had he tried a squeeze play, he only could get rid of the 77, as the AA was UTG and might have shoved. Then what do you have to do? Fold, right? Yet as it played out he was 2.07-1 hand odds and getting 3-1 on a call. .
If you read post you'd see that none of them were deep. How in the ___ is a squeeze play going to work when it 'looks like' they're only playing 15-20bb's deep?
Then giving preflop calling odds (or are you now giving postflop odds.. then adding in some more convuluted misinformation about implied odds when it doesn't even apply in the situation).:eek:

'gg'
 
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