$Freeroll NLHE MTT: CC $100 daily at ACR. How would you play it?

[MemphisGrind]

Using the new hand converter. This hand happened during one of the CC freerolls. Just curious to hear different views on how you would have played this hand. Thanks in advance.

https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/3qcXM9Q

 

[Brawo]

Preflop bet should be bigger in my opinion, you have around 90BB I would bet 180 it's understandable you didin't want scare your opponents with premium but you have more chance to throw away weak hands like A4o.

You bet 270 to 360 on the flop, big size, too big for me, because you don't want to scare medium pairs (top pair like KQ, QJ, QT never fold here even when you play 270[AQ probably would make re-raise preflop]) rainbow flop, very safe.

FuSheng called, probably he has top pair with good kicker like jack or king (less chance because you have two king, you block it) he hadn't queens of course, maybe deuces or threes. We know he had A4o and had gutshot straight draw.
His call was a huge mistake here. Pot odds are unfavorable.

Another queen hmm here is a little tough decision, If he had queen, he had trips right know, very strong hand or had full house with 22 or 33, but you should make another bet and you did it BUT You played block bet, I don't like it, it show weakness for me often. Big size on the flop, small size on the turn, little weird, half a pot would be ok. Call from FuSheng again. (here you gave him much better pot odds).

After two calls I would check on the river, pot control.
248 to 1350? what was that? another block bet another weakness

FuSheng had a lucky, but you shouldn't call this all-in. I explained why step by step above. He had a lot of hands better than yours and remember, players in freerolls or microstakes makes bluffs on the river rarely.

Good Luck!

 

[MemphisGrind]

Preflop bet should be bigger in my opinion, you have around 90BB I would bet 180 it's understandable you didin't want scare your opponents with premium but you have more chance to throw away weak hands like A4o.

You bet 270 to 360 on the flop, big size, too big for me, because you don't want to scare medium pairs (top pair like KQ, QJ, QT never fold here even when you play 270[AQ probably would make re-raise preflop]) rainbow flop, very safe.

FuSheng called, probably he has top pair with good kicker like jack or king (less chance because you have two king, you block it) he hadn't queens of course, maybe deuces or threes. We know he had A4o and had gutshot straight draw.
His call was a huge mistake here. Pot odds are unfavorable.

Another queen hmm here is a little tough decision, If he had queen, he had trips right know, very strong hand or had full house with 22 or 33, but you should make another bet and you did it BUT You played block bet, I don't like it, it show weakness for me often. Big size on the flop, small size on the turn, little weird, half a pot would be ok. Call from FuSheng again. (here you gave him much better pot odds).

After two calls I would check on the river, pot control.
248 to 1350? what was that? another block bet another weakness

FuSheng had a lucky, but you shouldn't call this all-in. I explained why step by step above. He had a lot of hands better than yours and remember, players in freerolls or microstakes makes bluffs on the river rarely.

Good Luck!

Preflop bet should be bigger in my opinion, you have around 90BB I would bet 180 it's understandable you didin't want scare your opponents with premium but you have more chance to throw away weak hands like A4o.

I can definitely see merit in a larger opening size, but as you said I was attempting to keep in for value.

You bet 270 to 360 on the flop, big size, too big for me, because you don't want to scare medium pairs (top pair like KQ, QJ, QT never fold here even when you play 270[AQ probably would make re-raise preflop]) rainbow flop, very safe.

I agree whole heartedly that my flop sizing was awful! I should have value bet, but for some reason I felt like I would get called by any two on any bet so I sized it up. This was just based on information from playing with the player, and notes.


FuSheng called, probably he has top pair with good kicker like jack or king (less chance because you have two king, you block it) he hadn't queens of course, maybe deuces or threes. We know he had A4o and had gutshot straight draw.
His call was a huge mistake here. Pot odds are unfavorable.


Yes I agree, I wish I know how to do the fancy spoiler alert thing that would eliminate everyone knowing what happened, but still learning the new hand converter.

Another queen hmm here is a little tough decision, If he had queen, he had trips right know, very strong hand or had full house with 22 or 33, but you should make another bet and you did it BUT You played block bet, I don't like it, it show weakness for me often. Big size on the flop, small size on the turn, little weird, half a pot would be ok. Call from FuSheng again. (here you gave him much better pot odds).

So I'll explain where my head was here. I easily give him credit for a queen my block bet was attempting to be something of a range merge, where if I get raised on this street I can define the range a little better and comfortably get away from river bet when I check and at the same time see a cheap river. I'm in agreement with the half pot sizing on the turn.

After two calls I would check on the river, pot control.
248 to 1350? what was that? another block bet another weakness

FuSheng had a lucky, but you shouldn't call this all-in. I explained why step by step above. He had a lot of hands better than yours and remember, players in freerolls or microstakes makes bluffs on the river rarely.

On the river, I was searching for value, when they raised I felt committed to call. I could have checked the river, but usually when I check the river after betting flop and turn I get bet heavy into and have to make a tough decision. So, I usually put the small value bet out in hopes that I get cheap showdown.

Thank you for your post and the time you put into it. I agree with a lot of what you said, I have the biggest issue playing against freeroll players. I usually end up leveling, and find myself overthinking ABC moves.

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
Its important to understand, why we pick a certain size. Small sizes makes sense, if people are rarely calling preflop but mostly folding or 3-betting. They also makes sense, if stacks are short and ICM-pressure high, especially if other players can rejam over an open.

However they dont make sense, if stacks are deep, and you are in a very loose game, which a freeroll will typically be. In that situation you want to play less hands but actually use very big sizing. Its not to bad to stick to the traditional 3BB, but you can certainly get away with going larger sizes like 4BB or 4,5BB and still get plenty of bad calls from hands like this.

Flop
Preflop your bet was to small, but now its actually almost to big. This was a fairly dry board, and then a smaller bet size work better with your entire range. However coming back to the point, that this is a freeroll, its not exactly a disaster to bet big for value, so this is more something to consider, when your opponents are playing better.

Turn and river
Top pair now improved to trips, and I dont see much merit in continuing to fire at the pot from out of position. You do still beat draws, random floats and other pocket pairs, but even so your hand has definitely moved more towards a showdown value / bluff catcher type of thing.

So I would check now and try to get to a cheap showdown. Checking allow him to bluff, and then you just make decisions depending on his sizing and tendencies. You are always going to lose some chips, when he get there on a gutshot draw, but you lost more in this hand, than you had to.

 

[Jon Poker]

Like the opening raise size but then our flop bet sizing is too big - we are only getting value from a queen and possibly some weird underpair like TT or 99 even so, this is still a small part of their range. The flop is very dry - I would elect to bet around 1/3 pot on the flop keeping in his other hands besides Qx that could call a bet - on the turn if we are going to bet at all I would go big - roughly 2/3 pot or maybe just a hair bigger at 3/4. The problem with doing this when the Q comes is we are usually only getting called by a Q at this point so if we do bet and we do get called....its time to shut it down and consider folding to a river bet.

Personally I would check the turn here - Qx is definitely alot of what they would call us with on the flop and we should be cautious - if he was to check back the turn, then we could start to feel more confident about our hand and consider betting a river because our opponent should not be checking 3 queens very often.

So if we bet big on turn and get called I would check/fold river....the straight isnt as concerning as the 3 queens. So when we check here and our opponent bets big he is never betting any hand for value that we beat and essentially our Kings become bluff catchers.

When we check, if our opponent checks back the turn we can elect to bet the river for value - again, I would go around 2/3 pot or so....then if and when we get raised - we can just fold - because again, our opponent is likely never raising a hand that we beat in this spot - if we do get sticky and call, we might be down but at least we arnt going broke when we dont have to

 

[Ianmacca99]

I don't mind the opening size but as others have said a bigger size is also fine .

Flop your sizing was large which is only getting action from a small number of hands I prefer a 40% ish sizing here

On the turn
I would now elect to check and go into check call mode looking to get to showdown think this could draw a bluff from our opponent. This also protects our check call range if we always bet here what do we have when we check good players will exploit this

River
What are we beating now that bets for value we essentially now have a bluff catcher. I would prefer a check on the river also

In this instance villan caught up but in general your way ahead unless he's turned trips or his actual hand

 

[MemphisGrind]

Preflop
Its important to understand, why we pick a certain size. Small sizes makes sense, if people are rarely calling preflop but mostly folding or 3-betting. They also makes sense, if stacks are short and ICM-pressure high, especially if other players can rejam over an open.

However they dont make sense, if stacks are deep, and you are in a very loose game, which a freeroll will typically be. In that situation you want to play less hands but actually use very big sizing. Its not to bad to stick to the traditional 3BB, but you can certainly get away with going larger sizes like 4BB or 4,5BB and still get plenty of bad calls from hands like this.

Flop
Preflop your bet was to small, but now its actually almost to big. This was a fairly dry board, and then a smaller bet size work better with your entire range. However coming back to the point, that this is a freeroll, its not exactly a disaster to bet big for value, so this is more something to consider, when your opponents are playing better.

Turn and river
Top pair now improved to trips, and I dont see much merit in continuing to fire at the pot from out of position. You do still beat draws, random floats and other pocket pairs, but even so your hand has definitely moved more towards a showdown value / bluff catcher type of thing.

So I would check now and try to get to a cheap showdown. Checking allow him to bluff, and then you just make decisions depending on his sizing and tendencies. You are always going to lose some chips, when he get there on a gutshot draw, but you lost more in this hand, than you had to.

Its important to understand, why we pick a certain size. Small sizes makes sense, if people are rarely calling preflop but mostly folding or 3-betting. They also makes sense, if stacks are short and ICM-pressure high, especially if other players can rejam over an open.

Yea absolutely, I'm up to date on all this.

However they dont make sense, if stacks are deep, and you are in a very loose game, which a freeroll will typically be. In that situation you want to play less hands but actually use very big sizing. Its not to bad to stick to the traditional 3BB, but you can certainly get away with going larger sizes like 4BB or 4,5BB and still get plenty of bad calls from hands like this.

Yes, most freerolls are typically loose games, however there are many cases in CC freerolls where you are actually dealing with tables that are full of Nits.

Flop
Preflop your bet was to small, but now its actually almost to big. This was a fairly dry board, and then a smaller bet size work better with your entire range. However coming back to the point, that this is a freeroll, its not exactly a disaster to bet big for value, so this is more something to consider, when your opponents are playing better.

I have reasoning's for my smaller pre-flop bet sizing. It's table dependent. I agree that my flop bet was bad. I should have sized down. As stated the larger sizing was for value, and again player dependent.

Turn and river
Top pair now improved to trips, and I dont see much merit in continuing to fire at the pot from out of position. You do still beat draws, random floats and other pocket pairs, but even so your hand has definitely moved more towards a showdown value / bluff catcher type of thing.


Yes, I agree with all of this, and will probably use this line more often moving forwards, however as stated in my reply to the first response I was merging my range here.

So I would check now and try to get to a cheap showdown. Checking allow him to bluff, and then you just make decisions depending on his sizing and tendencies. You are always going to lose some chips, when he get there on a gutshot draw, but you lost more in this hand, than you had to.

This is where I strongly believe I messed up, however as I have described normally when my line goes bet bet and then check river, I end up facing a large bet with villains entire range and have to make a hard call rather than defining the range a little better. ex. had villain raised my bet on turn, I would have played a check/call/fold river but with villain flat calling turn bet I didn't want river going check check. However I'm completely open for discussion on all of this.

 

[MemphisGrind]

Like the opening raise size but then our flop bet sizing is too big - we are only getting value from a queen and possibly some weird underpair like TT or 99 even so, this is still a small part of their range. The flop is very dry - I would elect to bet around 1/3 pot on the flop keeping in his other hands besides Qx that could call a bet - on the turn if we are going to bet at all I would go big - roughly 2/3 pot or maybe just a hair bigger at 3/4. The problem with doing this when the Q comes is we are usually only getting called by a Q at this point so if we do bet and we do get called....its time to shut it down and consider folding to a river bet.

Personally I would check the turn here - Qx is definitely alot of what they would call us with on the flop and we should be cautious - if he was to check back the turn, then we could start to feel more confident about our hand and consider betting a river because our opponent should not be checking 3 queens very often.

So if we bet big on turn and get called I would check/fold river....the straight isnt as concerning as the 3 queens. So when we check here and our opponent bets big he is never betting any hand for value that we beat and essentially our Kings become bluff catchers.

When we check, if our opponent checks back the turn we can elect to bet the river for value - again, I would go around 2/3 pot or so....then if and when we get raised - we can just fold - because again, our opponent is likely never raising a hand that we beat in this spot - if we do get sticky and call, we might be down but at least we arnt going broke when we dont have to

Like the opening raise size but then our flop bet sizing is too big - we are only getting value from a queen and possibly some weird underpair like TT or 99 even so, this is still a small part of their range. The flop is very dry - I would elect to bet around 1/3 pot on the flop keeping in his other hands besides Qx that could call a bet - on the turn if we are going to bet at all I would go big - roughly 2/3 pot or maybe just a hair bigger at 3/4. The problem with doing this when the Q comes is we are usually only getting called by a Q at this point so if we do bet and we do get called....its time to shut it down and consider folding to a river bet.

As I've stated in the last few replies I agree the flop bet was awful. the turn however I can completely understand the larger sizing, and getting away on later streets, but as I explained above, the small turn bet should help identify the queen. Up for discussion on that though as I am with all things.


Personally I would check the turn here - Qx is definitely alot of what they would call us with on the flop and we should be cautious - if he was to check back the turn, then we could start to feel more confident about our hand and consider betting a river because our opponent should not be checking 3 queens very often.

Same reasoning with the smaller bet, it's essentially a check with value added to it.

So if we bet big on turn and get called I would check/fold river....the straight isnt as concerning as the 3 queens. So when we check here and our opponent bets big he is never betting any hand for value that we beat and essentially our Kings become bluff catchers.

Taking this line I would agree. I guess I just took the wrong line.


When we check, if our opponent checks back the turn we can elect to bet the river for value - again, I would go around 2/3 pot or so....then if and when we get raised - we can just fold - because again, our opponent is likely never raising a hand that we beat in this spot - if we do get sticky and call, we might be down but at least we arnt going broke when we dont have to

I should have folded to the river raise, however just felt he didn't have a queen based on action from prior streets, and wanted to see the bluff. I want everyone to know I'm not arguing with anyone's replies, I just like having discussions because it's how we all get better. I appreciate yours and everyone's responses greatly.

 

[MemphisGrind]

I don't mind the opening size but as others have said a bigger size is also fine .

Flop your sizing was large which is only getting action from a small number of hands I prefer a 40% ish sizing here

On the turn
I would now elect to check and go into check call mode looking to get to showdown think this could draw a bluff from our opponent. This also protects our check call range if we always bet here what do we have when we check good players will exploit this

River
What are we beating now that bets for value we essentially now have a bluff catcher. I would prefer a check on the river also

In this instance villan caught up but in general your way ahead unless he's turned trips or his actual hand

I don't mind the opening size but as others have said a bigger size is also fine .

agree

Flop your sizing was large which is only getting action from a small number of hands I prefer a 40% ish sizing here

I agree again, however in this case the bet was player dependent

On the turn
I would now elect to check and go into check call mode looking to get to showdown think this could draw a bluff from our opponent. This also protects our check call range if we always bet here what do we have when we check good players will exploit this

This is the best explanation, however I want to add I am balanced when it comes to checking the turn or sizing small I had other reasoning's for the smallish bet as described above but I do agree with the merit of checking and how it affects the line on future streets

River
What are we beating now that bets for value we essentially now have a bluff catcher. I would prefer a check on the river also

In this instance villan caught up but in general your way ahead unless he's turned trips or his actual hand

Completely agree, River bet was terrible.

 

[Jon Poker]

As I've stated in the last few replies I agree the flop bet was awful. the turn however I can completely understand the larger sizing, and getting away on later streets, but as I explained above, the small turn bet should help identify the queen. Up for discussion on that though as I am with all things.

Same reasoning with the smaller bet, it's essentially a check with value added to it.

Dont take this the wrong way but first off I just want to say it's good to see the original poster responding - however here it seems like you aren't necessarily into taking points opinions offered by the rest of us into consideration but rather break down our analysis - offer justifications to your own actions and brought across in a defensive manner. I'm not angry nor calling you out by any means - but seems here you already have your mind made up that what you did was correct and you just want everyone else to agree. Do you know what I am saying? You're responses aren't consistent of "oh I never thought of it that way" or "that makes sense, I see your point" - your responses are more along the lines of "yeah I know what you mean but I did it this way for this reason and the reason that line makes sense is because of this" - hope that whole constructed dialogue makes sense lol I am just trying to get my perspective across - honestly dude, not trying to shame or bash you in your own thread.

That all being said I have some points from your response to me I would like to go over. Such as, I would want to ask how you determine the small turn bet would "help to identify the queen"? Small turn bets can allow tons of weird hands and draws to come along while a large bet on the turn is likely to be ONLY getting called by a Q. So if you are betting to polarize a Q on the turn, seems that a larger bet sizing is most ideal.

Secondly...there is no such thing as a "value check" or any concept to being "the same as a check with a little value added to it" - checking the turn gets us no value - but it also doesn't take ourselves to value town. Large bets on the turn are highly likely to get worse to fold (no value) and Qs to call (value owning ourselves). So dont give yourself the reason/illusion that betting the turn small is like a small value bet very similar to a check...no such thing exists. When you bet you are doing so for two reasons - you are either betting to extract value from worse hands - or your are betting to get better hands to fold, ie: you are bluffing. It literally is as simple as that. For those that consider betting as a way of "paying for information" - this is entirely true...but if you are betting SOLEY with the idea that you are buying information then you are betting for the wrong reasons and you may as well just fold and pay them to show you their hand instead. We bet for value or a bluff - that is all there is to it - when we get called we can evaluate what hands are calling our value bet/bluff and whether we need to bet again or take a different approach.

I hope this makes sense. Again - I didnt come back to respond to cause issues, I really hope this helps you to improve your game. Thanks for reading. Take care

EDIT:: Forgot to also touch on one more thing- I saw you explain to another individual that your bet sizing was "table dependent" - bet sizing is not something we should be changing based on tables/players. Loose players are calling us no matter what sizings we choose and tight players are folding the same way. Deviating bet sizes only accomplishes one thing - it gives opponents a window into our strategy and allows us to become exploitable. Sticking to a solid strategy makes it much more difficult for opponents to determine the strength of our hand.

 

[MemphisGrind]

Dont take this the wrong way but first off I just want to say it's good to see the original poster responding - however here it seems like you aren't necessarily into taking points opinions offered by the rest of us into consideration but rather break down our analysis - offer justifications to your own actions and brought across in a defensive manner. I'm not angry nor calling you out by any means - but seems here you already have your mind made up that what you did was correct and you just want everyone else to agree. Do you know what I am saying? You're responses aren't consistent of "oh I never thought of it that way" or "that makes sense, I see your point" - your responses are more along the lines of "yeah I know what you mean but I did it this way for this reason and the reason that line makes sense is because of this" - hope that whole constructed dialogue makes sense lol I am just trying to get my perspective across - honestly dude, not trying to shame or bash you in your own thread.

That all being said I have some points from your response to me I would like to go over. Such as, I would want to ask how you determine the small turn bet would "help to identify the queen"? Small turn bets can allow tons of weird hands and draws to come along while a large bet on the turn is likely to be ONLY getting called by a Q. So if you are betting to polarize a Q on the turn, seems that a larger bet sizing is most ideal.

Secondly...there is no such thing as a "value check" or any concept to being "the same as a check with a little value added to it" - checking the turn gets us no value - but it also doesn't take ourselves to value town. Large bets on the turn are highly likely to get worse to fold (no value) and Qs to call (value owning ourselves). So dont give yourself the reason/illusion that betting the turn small is like a small value bet very similar to a check...no such thing exists. When you bet you are doing so for two reasons - you are either betting to extract value from worse hands - or your are betting to get better hands to fold, ie: you are bluffing. It literally is as simple as that. For those that consider betting as a way of "paying for information" - this is entirely true...but if you are betting SOLEY with the idea that you are buying information then you are betting for the wrong reasons and you may as well just fold and pay them to show you their hand instead. We bet for value or a bluff - that is all there is to it - when we get called we can evaluate what hands are calling our value bet/bluff and whether we need to bet again or take a different approach.

I hope this makes sense. Again - I didnt come back to respond to cause issues, I really hope this helps you to improve your game. Thanks for reading. Take care

EDIT:: Forgot to also touch on one more thing- I saw you explain to another individual that your bet sizing was "table dependent" - bet sizing is not something we should be changing based on tables/players. Loose players are calling us no matter what sizings we choose and tight players are folding the same way. Deviating bet sizes only accomplishes one thing - it gives opponents a window into our strategy and allows us to become exploitable. Sticking to a solid strategy makes it much more difficult for opponents to determine the strength of our hand.

Dont take this the wrong way but first off I just want to say it's good to see the original poster responding - however here it seems like you aren't necessarily into taking points opinions offered by the rest of us into consideration but rather break down our analysis - offer justifications to your own actions and brought across in a defensive manner.


I assure you, I have and will not take anything the wrong way. As I have said numerous time throughout my replies, I am interested in DISCUSSIONS. I don't want people to say okay here is what I think and that is the end of it. The same way I don't want to post my opinion and that be the end of that. I hope that my replies and thoughts would create a good back and forth of thought and strategy.

Every point offered that I see merit in I have tried to note that it is a good point, and multiple time throughout have stated that I made some terrible plays, but explained the reasoning of why the play was made in hopes that after knowing the thought process behind it, could then be broke down some more, by everyone. Because this game is one of information, and the more information we have the better decisions we make.

I am not even in the SLIGHTEST trying to be defensive. Just trying to have a discussion about a game I love, and am passionate about. I feel like I have been tremendously nice throughout thanking each person for their time, and working on making a learning experience for everyone through good strategic conversation. However not one person has even attempted to have a discussion.....

I'm not angry nor calling you out by any means - but seems here you already have your mind made up that what you did was correct and you just want everyone else to agree. Do you know what I am saying? You're responses aren't consistent of "oh I never thought of it that way" or "that makes sense, I see your point" - your responses are more along the lines of "yeah I know what you mean but I did it this way for this reason and the reason that line makes sense is because of this" - hope that whole constructed dialogue makes sense lol I am just trying to get my perspective across - honestly dude, not trying to shame or bash you in your own thread.

Nor, am I matter of fact the opposite, I'm happy someone is actually attempting to create a discussion. I guess we are not understanding one another, I do not want everyone to agree with my play. Just the opposite, hearing different lines was the main point of this thread, and I mentioned that multiple times throughout that, certain lines are a good idea, and that I would use them moving forwards.and my responses may not have come out as "oh I never thought of it that way" because I have thought of it that way... I've been playing since I was thirteen, and have the good fortune of being able to work with some circuit pro's and highstakes grinders, on a daily basis. We have study sessions, go over hundreds of hands a day, and spend more than a healthy amount of time discussing different strategies.

I'm sorry you don't feel like I gave credit where credit is due.... I feel like everyone made a lot of valid points. I appreciate you getting your perspective across and that is all I'm attempting to do as well. I hope we can have constructive poker strategy discussions.

That all being said I have some points from your response to me I would like to go over. Such as, I would want to ask how you determine the small turn bet would "help to identify the queen"? Small turn bets can allow tons of weird hands and draws to come along while a large bet on the turn is likely to be ONLY getting called by a Q. So if you are betting to polarize a Q on the turn, seems that a larger bet sizing is most ideal.

The queen is going to more than likely raise, making it easily identifiable and if we don't improve on river can easily fold as you wrote "weird hands and draws" are going to flat which is why I took the line of leading the river after the flat on the turn. The river bet is me merging my range.

I completely agree with what you are saying about sizing up the turn bet, it is definitely going to polarize the Queen. however the risk we take is losing that bet which is a larger portion than we had to, to gain the same information.

Now, if you don't think the three queens is going to raise but just flat then I could be completely wrong... however I feel like more often than not on a small blocker bet three queens will raise to get some more value.


Secondly...there is no such thing as a "value check" or any concept to being "the same as a check with a little value added to it" - checking the turn gets us no value - but it also doesn't take ourselves to value town. Large bets on the turn are highly likely to get worse to fold (no value) and Qs to call (value owning ourselves). So dont give yourself the reason/illusion that betting the turn small is like a small value bet very similar to a check...no such thing exists. When you bet you are doing so for two reasons - you are either betting to extract value from worse hands - or your are betting to get better hands to fold, ie: you are bluffing. It literally is as simple as that. For those that consider betting as a way of "paying for information" - this is entirely true...but if you are betting SOLEY with the idea that you are buying information then you are betting for the wrong reasons and you may as well just fold and pay them to show you their hand instead. We bet for value or a bluff - that is all there is to it - when we get called we can evaluate what hands are calling our value bet/bluff and whether we need to bet again or take a different approach.

Correct there is not a technical term it was somewhat of a joke, but apparently not a very good one. It's meant to be as in I'm getting the same result if I check and If I bet small, except for if I check, I don't get any extra money from the part of villains range that I'm currently ahead of. Perfect example in this exact hand (I got additional chips out of villain that I wouldn't have otherwise received by checking) and barring the 7 outs hitting on the river would have won the pot.

I want to make this extremely clear, I am not disagreeing with ANYTHING you are saying, I know it all to be true. I'm simply offering another way to look at it. this game is every changing and if we stick with the same plays that have been done for years we stay below the curve. I also wanted to add there are other reasons to bet other than the two you listed like denying your opponent equity, or fold out your opponents share of equity in a pot.

I hope this makes sense. Again - I didnt come back to respond to cause issues, I really hope this helps you to improve your game. Thanks for reading. Take care

EDIT:: Forgot to also touch on one more thing- I saw you explain to another individual that your bet sizing was "table dependent" - bet sizing is not something we should be changing based on tables/players. Loose players are calling us no matter what sizings we choose and tight players are folding the same way. Deviating bet sizes only accomplishes one thing - it gives opponents a window into our strategy and allows us to become exploitable. Sticking to a solid strategy makes it much more difficult for opponents to determine the strength of our hand.

And to you I hope we are able to have a good discussion out of this. I am doing everything I can to improve my game. Which is why it is where it is now. By having these discussions and getting down to it makes understanding the game so much easier. We will never understand it completely or be able to solve it but it's fun to try and get close.

On your edit, I'd say that's debatable. Your reasoning for me not changing bet sizing is because it's exploitable clashes with my entire exploitative strategy. I don't ever want to play GTO. There is nor reason to play GTO unless you are playing with other GTO players. I play an exploitative game because I believe it is more profitable. Like I said I'm willing to have a discussion on this. So definitely please write back on this subject. Until our next talk. Take care.

 

[Jon Poker]

I agree with you that in a lot of instances 3 queens will be raising - but, if you were sitting on this board with KQ and you have an opponent barreling off into you while you make trips...are you raising the turn? Or giving them a chance to bomb the river and then spring the trap? Me specifically I tend not to push my opponent away when they are willing to commit chips while I have a very strong hand and can possibly squeeze one more street out of them. As it played out though - I would totally take the same line your opponent did on the turn and river everytime I had a Q.

As far as deviating bet sizing being debatable - I suppose so, but when we are playing an exploitable style of Poker we ourselves open up to being exploitable. The theory behind this is that GTO is supposedly- when played perfectly - unexploitable. So when we deviate from GTO to exploit someone - we ourselves become exploitable. It's a paradox. For me proper preflop bet sizing has nothing to do with GTO or exploitable styles of game play - it is more or less a solid fundamental of ones knowledge to the game. If I see you raising larger and showing down premium hands - I will elect to flat in position and take away pots from you with marginal boards / holdings. I will fold a ton as well because I know you have a strong range when you go bigger. When I see you make "standard" bets that arnt as big as your "premium" sizings - I will 3bet you a ton because I know your holdings are marginal. Good players will note your betting patterns and exploit you for sure. While when you stick to solid preflop and post flop game plans you become much less exploitable.

My advice is dont raise bigger to protect better hands or charge loose players when you do flop well - exploit those players by getting 3 streets of value - exploit tight players by 3betting them often, exploit passive players by betting when they check. Deviating in bet sizings will cost you much more in value than playing solid pre and post flop buddy.

Anyhow, i appreciate you being humble. I hope everyone's responses including my own help you to improve. Good luck to you and good luck at the tables!

 

[MemphisGrind]

I agree with you that in a lot of instances 3 queens will be raising - but, if you were sitting on this board with KQ and you have an opponent barreling off into you while you make trips...are you raising the turn? Or giving them a chance to bomb the river and then spring the trap? Me specifically I tend not to push my opponent away when they are willing to commit chips while I have a very strong hand and can possibly squeeze one more street out of them. As it played out though - I would totally take the same line your opponent did on the turn and river everytime I had a Q.

As far as deviating bet sizing being debatable - I suppose so, but when we are playing an exploitable style of Poker we ourselves open up to being exploitable. The theory behind this is that GTO is supposedly- when played perfectly - unexploitable. So when we deviate from GTO to exploit someone - we ourselves become exploitable. It's a paradox. For me proper preflop bet sizing has nothing to do with GTO or exploitable styles of game play - it is more or less a solid fundamental of ones knowledge to the game. If I see you raising larger and showing down premium hands - I will elect to flat in position and take away pots from you with marginal boards / holdings. I will fold a ton as well because I know you have a strong range when you go bigger. When I see you make "standard" bets that arnt as big as your "premium" sizings - I will 3bet you a ton because I know your holdings are marginal. Good players will note your betting patterns and exploit you for sure. While when you stick to solid preflop and post flop game plans you become much less exploitable.

My advice is dont raise bigger to protect better hands or charge loose players when you do flop well - exploit those players by getting 3 streets of value - exploit tight players by 3betting them often, exploit passive players by betting when they check. Deviating in bet sizings will cost you much more in value than playing solid pre and post flop buddy.

Anyhow, i appreciate you being humble. I hope everyone's responses including my own help you to improve. Good luck to you and good luck at the tables!

This was a great reply! I’ll take it to heart and apply to my game. Thanks for the time, and look forwards to many more poker talks with you.

 

[eetenor]

Preflop


Turn and river
Top pair now improved to trips, and I dont see much merit in continuing to fire at the pot from out of position. You do still beat draws, random floats and other pocket pairs, but even so your hand has definitely moved more towards a showdown value / bluff catcher type of thing.

So I would check now and try to get to a cheap showdown. Checking allow him to bluff, and then you just make decisions depending on his sizing and tendencies. You are always going to lose some chips, when he get there on a gutshot draw, but you lost more in this hand, than you had to.

Great thoughts here fundiver!

We always have to be aware of the difference between 2 great cards preflop and what hand those 2 great cards make by the river.

On every street we evaluate and reconsider the relative, not linear strength of our hand.
As fun said we have to shift our perspective of KK when that turn hits. We now have second best hand or a bluff / thin value catcher.

Now we must move away from our hand reading skills to our situational poker reading skills.

Will this player bluff? Turn/ river?
What range would make sense to bluff?
(In a freeroll)
Do this villain's common actions make any sense?

In free rolls the majority of villains shove for value because they do not expect you to fold.
You will be playing fusheng again and again the goal now is to watch to see if Fusheng ever breaks that rule on the river. Fusheng did not do that here.

Hope this helps.

 

[MemphisGrind]

Great thoughts here fundiver!

We always have to be aware of the difference between 2 great cards preflop and what hand those 2 great cards make by the river.

On every street we evaluate and reconsider the relative, not linear strength of our hand.
As fun said we have to shift our perspective of KK when that turn hits. We now have second best hand or a bluff / thin value catcher.

Now we must move away from our hand reading skills to our situational poker reading skills.

Will this player bluff? Turn/ river?
What range would make sense to bluff?
(In a freeroll)
Do this villain's common actions make any sense?

In free rolls the majority of villains shove for value because they do not expect you to fold.
You will be playing fusheng again and again the goal now is to watch to see if Fusheng ever breaks that rule on the river. Fusheng did not do that here.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for your reply!

 

[TheDude6622]

So basically the consensus is correct. The pre-flop and flop bets were too small to protect your hand. The bets you made were small enough to build a pot but can cause heartache.