Flop trips, ugly turn-What do I do?

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ph_il

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This is a little interesting situation.

full tilt poker Game #6393274791: $1 + $0.25 Sit & Go (Turbo) (48625031), Table 1 - 400/800 - No Limit Hold'em - 22:23:24 ET - 2008/05/12
Seat 3: Philthy (8,120)
Seat 5: youguy (5,380)
youguy posts the small blind of 400
Philthy posts the big blind of 800
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Philthy [4h 3s]
youguy calls 400
Philthy checks
*** FLOP *** [4s 4d 5c]
Philthy checks
-I check because I have a very strong hand and I want value from it. I dont think my opponent has anything so I want him to try and catch.
youguy bets 800
-Half pot bet. Could be with ATC. I think its a buy attempt.
Philthy calls 800
-slow play my monster hand.
*** TURN *** [4s 4d 5c] [5d]
Philthy checks
youguy checks
*** RIVER *** [4s 4d 5c 5d] [Kh]
Philthy checks
youguy bets 1,600
-Another half pot bet. Im thinking that the K might have helped him but I dont see him betting out on a 2 paired board and I called his bet. I dont think he has 2 pair with A high because he raises PF with Ax.
Philthy -???

Do I just call or shove? Is folding even an option, I have the 5th best possible hand HU. I dont think my opponent has 55, KK, A5. Maybe 5x, 4x. Also, should I have raised the flop?
 
S93

S93

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I whould just call cause the only hands that call a shove here are the only hands that beat you. Folding is not an option i think(unless u have a gus hanshen read on the guy).
I dont see anything wrong with check/calling the flop to get him to put more chips in the middle,but then that damm 5 came to kill all action.

I cant see any thing "wrong" with the way u played this,just a nice HU traping job gone bad
 
robwhufc

robwhufc

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I whould just call cause the only hands that call a shove here are the only hands that beat you.

I don't agree, heads up plenty will call this with an inferior hand - pair of Kings will, bare ace might, he may even call with nothing, just playing the board.

I'd put him all in without a 2nd thought here.
 
robwhufc

robwhufc

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Do I just call or shove? Is folding even an option, I have the 5th best possible hand HU. I dont think my opponent has 55, KK, A5. Maybe 5x, 4x. Also, should I have raised the flop?

Folding is an option, but you aren't going to be a winning player if you keep folding monster hands heads up, because you haven't got the nuts.

He may have those hands, balance of probabilities surely is that he hasn't.

Could have raised the flop, but I wouldn't want him to fold and would be happy to check behind here.

Have you played a lot of HU confrontations in your career Philthy? He may have you beat, but his betting pattern is totally standard for someone having a couple of stabs at the pot with nothing. If he has a 5 he got lucky, but you've overanalysed this in my opinion, trying to find hands that he could have that can beat you.
 
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ph_il

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Have you played a lot of HU confrontations in your career Philthy?
Not a lot. Only when I manage to ever get HU during an SNG or MTT. I've played a few HU SNGs before, but thats it.
 
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Bulletproof40

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I wouldn't raise on the flop HU, then check raise if he bets on the turn. You can't win if you fold and if your getting cold decked there's nothing you can really do about it so go for it knowing that you will more than likely have the best hand.
 
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CfPoker

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He could well be making a stab here with nothing. It could even be a value bet with A high.

I'd probably shove here. If he's got a 4 he'll call in which case it's probably a chop. If he's got a 5 then unlucky. If he's got a K (most likely I feel) he'll probably call you.
 
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ph_il

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Would someone bet out that much to just represent the board? They're only getting called/raised by a better hand. What Im mostly concerned about about is the check on the turn, then the (value?) bet on the river. What can my opponent be holding that warrants a bet on the river king but not the turn 5? KK doesnt seem likely.

Assume my opponent is holding K6. He bets the flop and I call, I can be calling with either a 4 or a 5 or nothing. The turn is a 5 and he checks. The river is K and he bets out. I dont see how this is a good bet with just 2 pair, Kings up. Im probably not calling his bet with A high, but Im calling or shoving if I have hand that can beat him. The same can be said if he is playing A high or just the board. Im only calling with a better hand.

What about the turn 5? I dont see how that can make him slow down, but the K is good enough to bet? Did he slow down because the 5 help him or because it hurt him? If it hurt (he doesnt have a 4 or 5) then how does betting on the river change anything since he is getting called/raised by a better hand. If the 5 did help, then the only way he is getting paid off/called/rasied by me is if I have a 4 or 5 in my hand.

So, I dont see him betting out with nothing on the river after the way the hand played out. So, is he betting half pot with a 4 and fearing a 5 in my hand? Or is he betting small with a 5 looking to get reraised by a 4 in my hand?
 
BelgoSuisse

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This is a shove preflop. Completing the SB is just asking for trouble.
 
robwhufc

robwhufc

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Would someone bet out that much to just represent the board? They're only getting called/raised by a better hand.

:(

They are betting because they DON'T want a call. OK you called the first half pot bet, but you haven't bet since. You could have been drawing to a straight, you could have had 2 overs or Ace high (Ace high is usually good on a 445 board heads up) - you questioned whether you should fold this when you had a full house, now you're questioning why someone is betting out?

philthy said:
What Im mostly concerned about about is the check on the turn, then the (value?) bet on the river. What can my opponent be holding that warrants a bet on the river king but not the turn 5? KK doesnt seem likely.

it's not a value bet, it's a bluff (OK, I imagine he's got a 5 hence your post, but 4 times out of 5 he wont have).

philthy said:
Assume my opponent is holding K6. He bets the flop and I call, I can be calling with either a 4 or a 5 or nothing. The turn is a 5 and he checks. The river is K and he bets out. I dont see how this is a good bet with just 2 pair, Kings up. Im probably not calling his bet with A high, but Im calling or shoving if I have hand that can beat him.

Again, he's bet - you either call / raise or you fold. If you fold he wins the pot, takes the lead and the next hand is dealt. If he has J8, then that is a good result if he would have just split (or lost) if he had checked behind you.

philthy said:
What about the turn 5? I dont see how that can make him slow down, but the K is good enough to bet? Did he slow down because the 5 help him or because it hurt him? If it hurt (he doesnt have a 4 or 5) then how does betting on the river change anything since he is getting called/raised by a better hand. If the 5 did help, then the only way he is getting paid off/called/rasied by me is if I have a 4 or 5 in my hand.

So, I dont see him betting out with nothing on the river after the way the hand played out. So, is he betting half pot with a 4 and fearing a 5 in my hand? Or is he betting small with a 5 looking to get reraised by a 4 in my hand?

OK, you are still overanalysing. This is H2H at the end of a turbo SNG, you both have very low M's, hand values go way down. You've probably got 5 hands left in this game, 10 at the most. If you steal the BB without a fight, if you bet at the orphan or scary flops and get opponents to fold, then that is a good result. You need to be playing with a bit of balls at this stage, the braver player that can win without hitting the flop will be at a massive advantage to the weakling that is waiting to hit a flop (I once played a 50 hand H2H Sng without pairing the board one single time).

You have a full house, you are 2 handed, you are in the red zone, you put him all in and see what he does.
 
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switch0723

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Would someone bet out that much to just represent the board?

yep, if they think you have nothing, they know that their bet will get through even if they are only playing a board. They are taking a stab to win the pot instead of chopping it.

Flat call in the hand however, you definately can't fold and a raise will only be called by a 4 or a 5 so thats is effectively pointless, so just flat call
 
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CfPoker

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I'm going to do this the other way around. Although I suspect villian has the 5 in this particular example (because of the post) i'm going to assume I'm holding Kx.

This is a little interesting situation.

Full Tilt Poker Game #6393274791: $1 + $0.25 Sit & Go (Turbo) (48625031), Table 1 - 400/800 - No Limit Hold'em - 22:23:24 ET - 2008/05/12
Seat 3: Philthy (8,120)
Seat 5: youguy (5,380)
youguy posts the small blind of 400
Philthy posts the big blind of 800
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Villian [Kh 9s]
youguy calls 400
- May as well see a flop
Philthy checks
*** FLOP *** [4s 4d 5c]
Philthy checks
youguy bets 800
-He's just checked. Paired board - scary, unlikely he's hit, may as well take a stab
Philthy calls 800
-Ah. Wonder what he has.
*** TURN *** [4s 4d 5c] <font color='red'>5<font face="arial">♦</font></font>
Philthy checks
youguy checks
-He called my flop bet. Still suspect he hasn't got this but i'll slow down to keep the pot small.
*** RIVER *** [4s 4d 5c 5d] <font color='red'>K♥</font>
Philthy checks
youguy bets 1,600
-He's checked again. That's a check on all 3 streets. My king is probably good here - try and get some value in case he calls with A high, though I suspect he's just going to fold.
 
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CfPoker

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This is a shove preflop. Completing the SB is just asking for trouble.

Eh? We want to play pots from the small blind. If you're going to shove do it from the big blind to negate your bad position.
 
BelgoSuisse

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Eh? We want to play pots from the small blind. If you're going to shove do it from the big blind to negate your bad position.

blinds 400/800? at this point, we don't want to play at all, we want to steal.
 
robwhufc

robwhufc

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Is the Hand History coming out different on my PC? Philthy was in the BB wasn't he?
 
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ph_il

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Rob is probably right and I might be over analyzing the hand, but thats just how I am. Anyway, here are the results-

Full Tilt poker game #6393274791: $1 + $0.25 Sit & Go (Turbo) (48625031), Table 1 - 400/800 - No Limit Hold'em - 22:23:24 ET - 2008/05/12
Seat 3: Philthy (8,120)
Seat 5: youguy (5,380)
youguy posts the small blind of 400
Philthy posts the big blind of 800
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Philthy [4h 3s]
youguy calls 400
Philthy checks
*** FLOP *** [4s 4d 5c]
Philthy checks
youguy bets 800
Philthy calls 800
*** TURN *** [4s 4d 5c] [5d]
Philthy checks
youguy checks
*** RIVER *** [4s 4d 5c 5d] [Kh]
Philthy checks
youguy bets 1,600
Philthy has 15 seconds left to act
Philthy has requested time
-(over) analyzing hand. LOL
Philthy calls 1,600
-I simply call because if he has a 4, its a split pot but I suspect that he has a 5 after much thought and the way the hand played out.
*** SHOW DOWN ***
youguy shows [Ks 5h] a full house, Fives full of Kings
Philthy mucks
youguy wins the pot (6,400) with a full house, Fives full of Kings
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 6,400 | Rake 0
Board: [4s 4d 5c 5d Kh]
Seat 3: Philthy (big blind) mucked [4h 3s] - a full house, Fours full of Fives
Seat 5: youguy (small blind) showed [Ks 5h] and won (6,400) with a full house, Fives full of Kings

I admit, I made the wrong play in just calling the hand on the river. I think over-analyzing the hand got the best of me and I can see how its possible that my opponent could be making the same play with nothing. So, I dont think I made a monstrous read on anything-I just feared the better hand. I would've looked foolish if my opponent turned over Kx or A high, though. Live and learn, right?

Maybe I shouldve shoved PF...
 
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CfPoker

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Rob is probably right and I might be over analyzing the hand, but thats just how I am. Anyway, here are the results-

Full Tilt Poker Game #6393274791: $1 + $0.25 Sit & Go (Turbo) (48625031), Table 1 - 400/800 - No Limit Hold'em - 22:23:24 ET - 2008/05/12
Seat 3: Philthy (8,120)
Seat 5: youguy (5,380)
youguy posts the small blind of 400
Philthy posts the big blind of 800
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Philthy [4h 3s]
youguy calls 400
Philthy checks
*** FLOP *** [4s 4d 5c]
Philthy checks
youguy bets 800
Philthy calls 800
*** TURN *** [4s 4d 5c] <font color='red'>5<font face="arial">♦</font></font>
Philthy checks
youguy checks
*** RIVER *** [4s 4d 5c 5d] <font color='red'>K♥</font>
Philthy checks
youguy bets 1,600
Philthy has 15 seconds left to act
Philthy has requested time
-(over) analyzing hand. LOL
Philthy calls 1,600
-I simply call because if he has a 4, its a split pot but I suspect that he has a 5 after much thought and the way the hand played out.
*** SHOW DOWN ***
youguy shows [Ks 5h] a full house, Fives full of Kings
Philthy mucks
youguy wins the pot (6,400) with a full house, Fives full of Kings
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 6,400 | Rake 0
Board: [4s 4d 5c 5d Kh]
Seat 3: Philthy (big blind) mucked [4h 3s] - a full house, Fours full of Fives
Seat 5: youguy (small blind) showed [Ks 5h] and won (6,400) with a full house, Fives full of Kings

I admit, I made the wrong play in just calling the hand on the river. Live and learn, right? Maybe I shouldve shoved PF.

The call wasn't bad. A raise would have been okay too, although in this case it would of hurt. The only thing you can't do here is fold.

And why would you shove 43 preflop? Given that 32 is the worst hand 43 is probably second worst or there abouts.
 
BelgoSuisse

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And why would you shove 43 preflop? Given that 32 is the worst hand 43 is probably second worst or there abouts.

third worst after 42, I guess.

Anyway, I would probably shove 32 too. I'm pretty sure the correct open-shoving range here is ATC. And I hate to be results oriented, but in this case, open shoving probably gets K5 to fold, so we'd be up 1200 instead of down 3200...
 
vanquish

vanquish

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third worst after 42, I guess.

Anyway, I would probably shove 32 too. I'm pretty sure the correct open-shoving range here is ATC. And I hate to be results oriented, but in this case, open shoving probably gets K5 to fold, so we'd be up 1200 instead of down 3200...

effectives of ~7 BBs
sklansky-chubukov ranking for 43o: 2.366073 = follllllllllllllld preflop
 
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