Does my thought pattern make sense here? MTT NL holdem, above average stack.

Ronaldadio

Ronaldadio

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Hi guys.

I`ll talk you through my thought pattern here and let me know what u all think ;)

Putting aside the result - not relevant now - was I justified in making the plays I did?

PokerStars Game #13053027861: Tournament #65927122, $1.00+$0.10 Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (150/300) - 2007/11/05 - 07:44:36 (ET) Table '65927122 26' 9-max Seat #8 is the button Seat 1: garage (11537 in chips) Seat 2: sporie (21085 in chips) Seat 3: WazaAa86 (7190 in chips) Seat 4: Curious B (3515 in chips) Seat 5: riccashay (6733 in chips) Seat 6: Foreignbegga (17972 in chips) Seat 7: ronaldadio (9830 in chips) Seat 8: mutze28 (11913 in chips) Seat 9: peolock (626 in chips) is sitting out
garage: posts the ante 25
sporie: posts the ante 25
WazaAa86: posts the ante 25
Curious B: posts the ante 25
riccashay: posts the ante 25
Foreignbegga: posts the ante 25
ronaldadio: posts the ante 25
mutze28: posts the ante 25
peolock: posts the ante 25
peolock: posts small blind 150
garage: posts big blind 300
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ronaldadio [Ts Qs]
sporie: folds
WazaAa86: calls 300
riccashay said, "yeah love it not much water anymore so havent got to do much"
Curious B: folds
riccashay: calls 300
Foreignbegga: folds
ronaldadio: calls 300 (lets try to see a cheap flop)
mutze28: calls 300
peolock: folds
Foreignbegga said, "true its really bad over your way"
garage: checks
*** FLOP *** [2h Td Qh]
garage: checks
WazaAa86: checks
riccashay: bets 900
Foreignbegga said, "maybe youshould go to nz for a holiday"
riccashay said, "yeah"
ronaldadio: calls 900 (This guy won`t fold a draw on flop, so lets see river)
mutze28: calls 900 (Value bet/ gutshot/ flush???)
garage: folds
WazaAa86: folds
*** TURN *** [2h Td Qh] [4s]
riccashay: checks (missed his draw)
ronaldadio: bets 3000 (I want to take it now)
mutze28: calls 3000 (He got the Q? or is he prepared to pay over the odds to catch a flush/ straight?)
Foreignbegga said, "pretty cheap to get there"
riccashay: folds
*** RIVER *** [2h Td Qh 4s] [Ac]
ronaldadio: bets 5605 and is all-in (The only hand I`m worried about now is KJ. If he had AQ/ A10 preflop he would have raised. He has raised with lots of Ax hands in position)
mutze28: calls 5605
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ronaldadio: shows [Ts Qs] (two pair, Queens and Tens)
mutze28: shows [4h Ah] (two pair, Aces and Fours :eek: ) riccashay said, "yeah would be nice"
ronaldadio said, "nh"
mutze28 collected 21785 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 21785 | Rake 0
Board [2h Td Qh 4s Ac]
Seat 1: garage (big blind) folded on the Flop Seat 2: sporie folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 3: WazaAa86 folded on the Flop Seat 4: Curious B folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 5: riccashay folded on the Turn Seat 6: Foreignbegga folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 7: ronaldadio showed [Ts Qs] and lost with two pair, Queens and Tens Seat 8: mutze28 (button) showed [4h Ah] and won (21785) with two pair, Aces and Fours Seat 9: peolock (small blind) folded before Flop
 
Melkor

Melkor

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It is very unlucky, basically the guy who has beateb you has made one bad call and then one atrocious call but we wouldn't get paid if it wasn't for these guys.

The one thing I will say is if I have top two and someone has already taken a stab at the pot I try to get some more money in while I am confident I am ahead, which we have to be here, so I would probably raise on the flop. I am not sure if I would be so confident he had a draw on the flop but if you think he does and won't fold it then it is the perfect situation for you to raise, make him pay to see his draw and then move in on the turn if the draw doesn't come. You couldn't change the outcome, but that is one thing I would suggest.
 
t1riel

t1riel

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You played it fine. Your opponent was just a donk.
 
dj11

dj11

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Slow play, = fast death.

Do you think if you raise large on the flop he is calling with his hand?
(This guy won`t fold a draw on flop, so lets see river) Bad logic here. Why do you let him see a turn, let alone river. Make it expensive for him to indulge his fantasies. A very large raise on the flop makes it too hard to call. Pot bet should have done it making his pot odds about 2-1. Instead you gave him 5-1 odds, almost good enough to call ATC. Somehow, he perceived you as weak, if we could figure that one out, we'd all be rich, but his call of your big bet on the turn shows he did perceive that. Perhaps he saw it as a steal because you did not raise the flop.


I think that the poker gods favorite trick is to flop a big hand to somebody then watch them slow play so they can kill em.
 
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robwhufc

robwhufc

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I've seen a hell of a lot worse than someone calling with correct odds on a flush draw, then calling a turn bet when 6 more potential outs have been added. Add to that the remote chance that you were drawing to straight and his Ace High was good, plus the fact he had 11,000 chips, plus the fact you were pot committed for another 5K chips should he hit, the call looks good to me.
 
J

joeeagles

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Draw heavy board, 5-way pot, I think I'd definitely raise the flop. Not sure it'd make a difference in a $1 tourney but it's the right move, if not you're leaving good odds to all drawing hands and you fail to protect yours. With your call pot is 3675 with 900 to put in so 4 to 1 for who calls. On that flop the only hand you could be trailing is a set of dueces so you have to think you're well ahead, but against another 4 opponents I can think of many cards that would put you in a bad spot on the turn, so you can't look at this in terms of getting value from your top 2 pair, you need to make a move right away. So to answer your question the only street where you misplayed this is the flop.

On the turn he's almost justified to call with his 14 outs and getting 2.5 to 1 with some decent IO (he did get the rest of your stack ;) ). Not saying his call was great since he invested 30% of his stack on it, but at this level they won't go away easy. More often than not that's a good thing :) .

I really hate getting knocked out in limped pots.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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(This guy won`t fold a draw on flop, so lets see river)

Whaaa?

Raise flop, shove turn.

As played, you did get unlucky, but you also played the hand somewhat poorly. The flop is about as draw-heavy as you could get, and you NEED to raise it to both protect it, and to get value. Villain could easily have had a flush draw, KQ or QJ type hand, AT or KJ...
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Slow play, = fast death.

Do you think if you raise large on the flop he is calling with his hand?
(This guy won`t fold a draw on flop, so lets see river) Bad logic here. Why do you let him see a turn, let alone river. Make it expensive for him to indulge his fantasies.

You're an oddball, dj, but I love ya :)

Good post sir.
 
Irexes

Irexes

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Two pairs are great on flops but often go downhill from there.

Add in a flush and straight draws and take the pot and count your blessings :)
 
Ronaldadio

Ronaldadio

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*** HOLE CARDS ***
ronaldadio: calls 900 (This guy won`t fold a draw on flop, so lets see river)

I ment `turn` not river. Sry.

An interestint hand for me here and some interesting comments...

Slow play, = fast death.

Do you think if you raise large on the flop he is calling with his hand?
(This guy won`t fold a draw on flop, so lets see river) Bad logic here. Why do you let him see a turn, let alone river. Make it expensive for him to indulge his fantasies. A very large raise on the flop makes it too hard to call. Pot bet should have done it making his pot odds about 2-1. Instead you gave him 5-1 odds, almost good enough to call ATC. Somehow, he perceived you as weak, if we could figure that one out, we'd all be rich, but his call of your big bet on the turn shows he did perceive that. Perhaps he saw it as a steal because you did not raise the flop.


I think that the poker gods favorite trick is to flop a big hand to somebody then watch them slow play so they can kill em.

I don`t want an argument here, but based on my logic, I wanted to seem weak. Flop top 2 pair, 3 of us in the pot, u have got to think u r ahead. Then a 4 hits - no help, I suspect. (I was obviously wrong, but :rolleyes: )

I would say u were possibly correct with reraising the flop, but I think my only option was all in on the flop, and yes, the guy might not have called and I would have walked away with a smaller pot.

And Chuck, playing the hand poorly? This could be my achillies. I like to slow play ppl. So possibly I should not??? Having said that, I could not think of many hands that would be ahead of me at any stage - obviously A4 was one of the last hands I thought of, based on action leading up to it.

Finally, I don`t understand where some of you guys have got all of the outs from??? joeeagles, 14 outs????
 
Melkor

Melkor

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It is very unlucky, basically the guy who has beateb you has made one bad call and then one atrocious call but we wouldn't get paid if it wasn't for these guys.

The one thing I will say is if I have top two and someone has already taken a stab at the pot I try to get some more money in while I am confident I am ahead, which we have to be here, so I would probably raise on the flop. I am not sure if I would be so confident he had a draw on the flop but if you think he does and won't fold it then it is the perfect situation for you to raise, make him pay to see his draw and then move in on the turn if the draw doesn't come. You couldn't change the outcome, but that is one thing I would suggest.

Wow, I didn't even see it was the ace four of hearts, my bad with the first paragraph. Should still raise the flop and shove the turn, but his play is no longer really bad.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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And Chuck, playing the hand poorly? This could be my achillies. I like to slow play ppl. So possibly I should not??? Having said that, I could not think of many hands that would be ahead of me at any stage - obviously A4 was one of the last hands I thought of, based on action leading up to it.

Well that's just the thing, Ron. You are ahead now, but your hand is very vulnerable.

Slowplaying is overdone. Online players are bad enough to stack with any TP here as well as any draw on the flop (especially in a $1 game), so slowplaying isn't needed.

I mean really, look at it. What is a slowplay? It's a means of getting a weaker hand to get involved by betting (or not betting) your hand in a weak manner to make him believe his hand is best, or to get him to catch just enough of a hand on later streets to pay you off.

a) our hand isn't strong enough to give a free card on this board and
b) players are willing to call off huge bets with marginal hands at this level anyways, so why bother?
 
J

joeeagles

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This could be my achillies. I like to slow play ppl. So possibly I should not??? Having said that, I could not think of many hands that would be ahead of me at any stage - obviously A4 was one of the last hands I thought of, based on action leading up to it.

Finally, I don`t understand where some of you guys have got all of the outs from??? joeeagles, 14 outs????

9 outs to a flush, 3 A's for 2 pair and 2 4's for trips. I count 14 outs :) .

Slowplaying at times is necessary to get value, induce bluffs, etc, and in the right scenario I'll do it too. But 5-handed to the flop, on a very, very heavy draw board, hardly figures to be a good slowplaying situation. Why do you say "3 of us in the pot"? I count 5 :). The first 2 guys checked but one of them could easily have 2 hearts and call the 900 because you left him good odds for that, so you can't count them out just because they checked.

On the turn there is a lenghty list of cards that can show up and make your hand 2nd best. Lets see, any heart can give someone a flush, any K or J can make a better 2 pair or even a straight, any A or 9 or 8 can give a straight. Add those cards up and it amounts to much more than 1/2 of the remainig deck. I'm not trying to make this bigger than what it is. It's a limped pot in a $1 tourney. KQ, QJ, KJ, J9 and any 2 hearts are all hands in those 4 guys range for PF limping. There are 29 cards that can come on the turn that potentially can make your hand 2nd best and end up costing you a lot to find it out.

Still think it's a good idea to slowplay that flop? ;)

I understand that you won't be able to get every single one of those hands to fold (it'd be really hard to get KQ, for example, to fold) so you could still get outdrawn, but there is less of a chance that someone with a stronger Q can outdraw you because they have less outs, so you actually want them to call your raise with a stronger Q, but you also want flush and straight draws to fold (or at the very least draw with terrible odds) because there are too many cards that can hurt you.
 
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B

Bentheman87

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Pretty much what everyone else said. You have what you should assume to be the best hand on the flop, but there are a lot of draws. Say the flop came queen 7 2 rainbow and you had queen 7. This would be a safer spot to just call and slowplay. But for a flop of 2 10 Q with two hearts, there are a TON of draws. Someone could have KJ or J 9 and be drawing to a straight. Someone could also have an inside straight draw. And then theres the flush draw. Even if I had QQ here, I wouldn't slowplay it against multiple opponents.
 
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