Discussion; $1 horse tournament OmahaH/L

[bubbasbestbabe]

I am selecting a few of my hands from last nights Horse Tourney on Stars. It's time to focus on playing some other games here.

At this stage in the game most of your weak players are going to chase to try to split the pot low.


*********** # 9 **************
pokerstars Game #15336830093: Tournament #76892481, $1.00+$0.10 HORSE
(Omaha Hi/Lo Limit) - Level II (30/60) - 2008/02/16 - 21:57:18 (ET)
Table '76892481 72' 8-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: LuckyLibra (2400 in chips)
Seat 2: Ripler (1470 in chips)
Seat 3: d4v1dk (1700 in chips)
Seat 4: klitkat (2710 in chips)
Seat 5: liberal666 (1280 in chips)
Seat 6: zzreds (1500 in chips)
Seat 7: delgr (1600 in chips)
Seat 8: pawl (1740 in chips)
d4v1dk: posts small blind 15
klitkat: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to klitkat [Tc Kc Ad Qh] nice drawing hand
d4v1dk said, "nh"
klitkat said, "ty"
liberal666: folds
zzreds: calls 30
delgr: calls 30
pawl: calls 30
LuckyLibra: calls 30
Ripler: folds
d4v1dk: raises 30 to 60
klitkat: calls 30
zzreds: calls 30
delgr: calls 30
pawl: calls 30
LuckyLibra: calls 30
*** FLOP *** [3h Jd Qc] mixed flop but good for my cards
d4v1dk: bets 30
klitkat: ?

At this point what do I bet here? I know d4v1dk is chasing the low.

 

[molotok]

I think you should just call to see the if turn is going to bring a low card, plus preflop you have a very marginal hand beacause you don't have a starting low hand. Hand selection in split games is very important. You need to scoop pots in order to be succefull.

 

[bubbasbestbabe]

Ultimatly scooping the whole pot is ideal but it always doesn't work that way. IMO you are better playing for the high side of the pot. Especially in the beginning of any HORSE Tourney. You have a lot of inexperianced players at that time. And they can increase your stack immensely.

 

[OzExorcist]

(Disclaimer: O8 isn't my best game, so take this with a pinch of salt if requird)

Gotta ask first, how do you know villain is chasing the low hand? At the moment he needs runner-runner to even allow the possibility of a low hand.

That said, you've got an OESD on a non-paired, non-flushing board... which means you're drawing to the nuts. Which is good. If I count it right, you've got 13 outs - 48% for the turn and river combined.

I think I raise here - if you're certain that people are chasing the low pot (stupid as that seems on this board) you want to get their money now because when a high card falls it'll kill your action from them. Unless they're really stupid, which is possible in a $1 game, but anywho...

If I flat called here, I think it'd only be because I'd decided I wanted the players behind me to stay around and put some dead money into the pot - it's read dependent, I guess: if you want them to hang around, and they're likely to call a double bet cold anyway, then there's still no harm going ahead and raising.

 

[skoldpadda]

Easy raise on flop. Wrap straight and TP/TK with lots of redraw potential. I want to get more money in the pot. You'll lose low draws on any 9+ turn card.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

I know d4v1dk is chasing the low.

no, no you don't. there's no possible way you can even 'suspect' this, let alone 'know' it.

anyway flop is 100% standard raise.

 

[bubbasbestbabe]

I know the dman is chasing because he has been chasing from the beginning of this tourney. Now I also have to take consideration of the others in this hand. I want this pot to be nice and juicy and have lots of these bad players with me as long as I can keep them. And yes, this $1 tourney is loaded with really bad players who don't know what they are doing.

klitkat: calls 30
zzreds: calls 30
delgr: folds
pawl: calls 30
LuckyLibra: calls 30
*** TURN *** [3h Jd Qc] [6s] no help to anyone. just enough of a tease to keep the low chasers in
d4v1dk: bets 60
klitkat:?

 

[OzExorcist]

He could be chasing the sucker end of the high straight though, or some kind of runner-runner flush draw, or he could even be sitting on QQxx or JJxx here - there really isn't any way we can know he's chasing the low here.

What we can know is that he's chased improbably low draws in the past, and that he's likely to do the same with a couple of low cards in this hand.

Anywho, that turn card wasn't what you wanted. But it also eliminated any flush possibilities. So you're still drawing to the nuts with 13 outs (assuming they're all live - which probably isn't the case, but anywho).

Even if you put in a raise here and only get one caller, you're still getting the pot odds for your draw. And again, if you make your draw on the river, then you're not going to be able to make any more money off anyone chasing the low. So raise away?

 

[skoldpadda]

Should've raised flop. As played, I raise the turn 100% of the time.

 

[switch0723]

definately should have raised flop, but now you have to raise here. You have a huge wrap draw but probably wont get any chips from people if you hit it since most will be chasing the low. So raise now to extract most value from the low draws

 

[bill_nj]

d4v1dk raised preflop and has led out every round, what kind of hands has he/she shown? I would definately call but I'm not sure I see the value of raising here. On the flop yes, but here on the turn... In holdem you almost definately have the best hand, but in O/8 I don't think so.

 

[skoldpadda]

You have 16 outs or 4/11 (36%) chance of hitting the river. I still like building the pot with 2 others in it. It's +EV: over 1/3 of the time you win 2 bets and the rest of the time you lose 1 big bet.

 

[t1tpfdc]

Definitely have to raise. Drawing for the nut straight, and with other possibilities ... no low had possible as yet, good chance to scoop. It's a Limit game so nobody can push.
If d4 has been trying to be the big dog, I think you have to raise, if for no other reason than to see what he does!


t1

 

[bubbasbestbabe]

See now here is where my thoughts are different. I know at the beginning of these tourneys is where there is a good time to make a nice chip lead because most of these players don't know how to play. Basically when they play the Hold Em section of Horse gives you a really good clue as to who is the total waif in the woods. I want to have as many of these players tag along with me trying for the low. Me reraising d4v1dk would scare off a lot of these minnows. I call and get three more to follow me.

*** TURN *** [3h Jd Qc] [6s]
d4v1dk: bets 60
klitkat: calls 60
zzreds: calls 60
pawl: calls 60
LuckyLibra: calls 60
*** RIVER *** [3h Jd Qc 6s] [9d] Made my straight. No low.
d4v1dk: checks
klitkat:?

 

[OzExorcist]

...you bet, naturally, and everyone who's been chasing the low draw folds. You could maybe check and hope someone bets so you can get a raise in, seeing as how that card killed a lot of your action, but at this level with players this passive, I think you have to bet it.

Which is why putting in a raise at some point was essential: yes you've won the hand, but you could've extracted more from the fish here. You've still got five players in the hand on the turn - no way you're folding them all out with a single raise, and even if two fold and two call you've still got the same amount of money in the pot.

 

[switch0723]

um bet, but do you see know how raising flop or turn would have bloated pot enough for you to easily get paid off on river. Were you seriously unsure about what to do here? No point in checking into 3 limpers, i doubt that 1 of them will, lead out and hope for a re raise

Edit: Argh damn you ozzzz

 

[The PoolBoy]

rai8se , raise and then raise some more

 

[OzExorcist]

Edit: Argh damn you ozzzz

I live to give

 

[mrsnake3695]

I agree with most of the posters here. You should have been raising. If they are fish like you say (and I have no reason to doubt that) many of them will call anyway on the flop and turn so build the pot. On the river raise, there are many hands that will call you bet like trips or 2 pair that would be happy to check it down. With this many players a bluff for 1 bet wont work so I doubt you will get anyone betting with a worse hand trying to steal. Your only chance (of course this might not apply to total fish) to get any more money is to bet.

 

[bubbasbestbabe]

I bet of course. But notice that without me rasing I caught a few more players to play to the end. And most of them where chasing the low. If by chance a low card came up there would have been raises on the board. I would have had high getting half the pot and the others would have split the low.

*** RIVER *** [3h Jd Qc 6s] [9d]
d4v1dk: checks
klitkat: bets 60
zzreds: folds
pawl: folds
LuckyLibra: folds
d4v1dk: calls 60
*** SHOW DOWN ***
klitkat: shows [Tc Kc Ad Qh] (HI: a straight, Nine to King)
d4v1dk said, "lol"
d4v1dk: mucks hand
klitkat collected 930 from pot
No low hand qualified

 

[OzExorcist]

I bet of course. But notice that without me rasing I caught a few more players to play to the end. And most of them where chasing the low. If by chance a low card came up there would have been raises on the board. I would have had high getting half the pot and the others would have split the low.

There's a problem here though - if a low card comes, you're no way assured to win the high hand. You could be up against a set, two pair, or one of the low chasers could make a low straight on the river.

So you're weak one way and don't have any hand the other. And if you do end up with a cinch for high on the river, you won't get any more action from the low hands.

As has been said above, even if you had've folded a couple of people out on the turn by raising, you still would've made more on the hand.