Winning Poker, Hold'em No Limit - 1,200/2,400 (240 ante) - 8 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

34521 (UTG): 266,926 (111 bb)
-Dr- (UTG+1): 21,122 (9 bb)
tokmag82 (MP): 6,408 (3 bb)
sergei72315 (MP+1): 19,934 (8 bb)
ShowerTHinker (CO): 187,583 (78 bb)
1MilhaoSemNada (BU): 73,747 (31 bb)
FleerNL (SB): 153,366 (64 bb)
Theikon112 (BB): 40,914 (17 bb)

Pre-Flop: (5,520) Hero (1MilhaoSemNada) is BTN with 9♣ J♣
34521 (UTG) raises to 4,800, 3 players fold, ShowerTHinker (CO) calls 4,800, 1MilhaoSemNada (BU) calls 4,800, 2 players fold

Flop: (19,920) 9♦ J♠ 6♠ (3 players)
34521 (UTG) checks, ShowerTHinker (CO) checks, 1MilhaoSemNada (BU) bets 9,960, 34521 (UTG) folds, ShowerTHinker (CO) raises to 19,920, 1MilhaoSemNada (BU) raises to 68,707 (all-in), ShowerTHinker (CO) calls 48,787

Turn: (157,334) 3♦ (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (157,334) Q♣ (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: 157,334

Showdown:
1MilhaoSemNada (BU) shows 9♣ J♣ (two pair, Jacks and Nines)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 31%, Flop: 82%, Turn: 93%, River: 0%)

ShowerTHinker (CO) shows J♥ Q♦ (two pair, Queens and Jacks)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 69%, Flop: 18%, Turn: 7%, River: 100%)

ShowerTHinker (CO) wins 157,334

what happened to the prints I posted? was not it...

this was supposed to be

I don't know what happened I am not loading the prints

In a final table situation like this, where you have a middling stack, and 3 players are very short, you should do a lot to stay out of the way of the big stacks. When a big stack has opened UTG, and another big stack has called, there is absolutely no reason for you to get involved with a marginal hand like J9s. Just fold and watch the short stacks have fun with the blinds within the next 4 hands. As played you flopped top two pair, and sure now you have to get it in, and it sucks, that he got there on the end. But this could and should have been avoided by the very simple decision of clicking "fold" preflop

Originally Posted by fundiver199

In a final table situation like this, where you have a middling stack, and 3 players are very short, you should do a lot to stay out of the way of the big stacks. When a big stack has opened UTG, and another big stack has called, there is absolutely no reason for you to get involved with a marginal hand like J9s. Just fold and watch the short stacks have fun with the blinds within the next 4 hands. As played you flopped top two pair, and sure now you have to get it in, and it sucks, that he got there on the end. But this could and should have been avoided by the very simple decision of clicking "fold" preflop

I disagree a little, I was not moving much and it was a mini raise and another call and late position I just floated to balance the range and got it right. Actually for me it was just a little bad luck

Originally Posted by I Live Poker

I disagree a little, I was not moving much and it was a mini raise and another call and late position I just floated to balance the range and got it right. Actually for me it was just a little bad luck

You are ignoring words of wisdom -- at a FT this hand is an eaaaaasy fold preflop. Final table icm implications have us playing super tight with 3 people stacked shorter than ourselves - so we can't afford to go broke and lose those payout ladders - therefor we can't take big flips like we would mid game and our push/fold game has to be on its highest level.

You and maaaaany other players are making the same mistakes at FTs playing it like its still a mid game situation. I would call IP w J9s mid game as well especially if I felt like I was running the table -- but at a FT im not even thinking twice about it...

Why? Because villans opening and calling ranges containing Jx have us dominated so when we do connect with only top pair we cannot fold to 1 cbet and will be just giving away chips because we didnt have enough discipline to fold a marginal hand IP at the FT. We deserve to lose when we play like that...

So your biggest mistake is the call preflop - which is not unlucky - it is just ignorant and ignorance is bliss so as long as we learn from such a thing - its nothing to be ashamed of and we should take it on the chin.

After our mistake - we get it in with top two pair vs a dominant hand and are in great shape to double up - villan hits his 3 outter and so there's where we COULD consider ourselves unlucky -- but we put ourselves in this situation and had we not made the mistake in the first place we wouldn't be broke now and out with 3 stacks shorter than us all recieving pay jumps -- so again, more ignorance than bad luck.

Nothing to learn from getting our money in good and losing -- but plenty to learn on correct FT play both preflop and post flop.

Take some of these words with a grain of salt - i mean no real offense but if you do not take it seriously then the points at hand may be missed so I am a bit blunt with explanations.

And not to drag this out further -- but how is flatting a marginal Jx hand IP "balancing your range"? Flatting here your hand looks like EXACTLY what it is....if you wanted to be balanced you should've 3bet the hand noticing its blocker capabilities -- which I still don't recommend at the FT. And by the way-- you did not get it right...QJ alone was a 75% favorite vs your J9 so you were dumping spent money into the pot for no reason. End of story here is just fold preflop.

Jon Poker being pretty blunt about it as usual. I also want to add, that even in a cash game or early in a tournament this overcall with J9s against an UTG open and a flat is very loose. If you plug this into PokerSnowie, it will almost certainly say, its a losing call. So its typically a call, we can only make, if we have a big skill edge on both opponents. Which might be the case in some soft games.

But the majority of poker players make these calls, and per definition they can not all have a skill edge. So some of them, if not most of them, are actually just being a fish and doing, what fish do best, which is to call. And this is ok, if you are playing for fun. I can totally see, that if we go to a casino and see 30 hands per hour, then we probably want to get involved as much as possible, especially if there are bad players at the table. But if you play online for money, this kind of call is usually a leak.

And as for the ICM implications, sure we can theoretically get away after investing just 2BB to see a flop. But the issue comes, when we connect in some way. The stack to pot ratio was only a little over 3, and in that sitaution its not so difficult to end up in a situation, where we are more or less pot committed.

In this spot we got it in with 80% equity, which is profitable even with ICM implications. But even if they had a draw or an overpair, they would have more equity. And this time we absolutely smashed the flop with top two. Much more often J9s flop some kind of draw or a marginal one pair. And getting out preflop protects us from getting into these sticky spots, which are way worse than getting it in with two pair against top pair.

This hand is 3-bet or fold, i think. You have 30 bb and is on a final table situation. Besides that you said you were kind tight and your stack is perfect to steal a 4-bet or to bluff after the flop by shoving. Just calling there was your mistake, in my opinion.After the flop it was ok, you couldn´t fold that hand.

Final table play is EXTREMELY different vs mid game play - yes that includes the final 2 tables and the FT bubble itself -- we should be extremely tight, especially while there are multiple stacks shorter than us.

Originally Posted by Jon Poker

Final table play is EXTREMELY different vs mid game play - yes that includes the final 2 tables and the FT bubble itself -- we should be extremely tight, especially while there are multiple stacks shorter than us.

More specifically the middling stacks need to be very tight, when there is a large spread between stack sizes. In this spot someone had 3BB, and he was going to be facing the blinds 3 hands from now. There is a very solid chance, Hero can get a payjump by just folding the next 3-4 hands, and then getting involved needs to have an EV, which is larger than that.

Originally Posted by I Live Poker

Winning Poker, Hold'em No Limit - 1,200/2,400 (240 ante) - 8 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

34521 (UTG): 266,926 (111 bb)
-Dr- (UTG+1): 21,122 (9 bb)
tokmag82 (MP): 6,408 (3 bb)
sergei72315 (MP+1): 19,934 (8 bb)
ShowerTHinker (CO): 187,583 (78 bb)
1MilhaoSemNada (BU): 73,747 (31 bb)
FleerNL (SB): 153,366 (64 bb)
Theikon112 (BB): 40,914 (17 bb)

Pre-Flop: (5,520) Hero (1MilhaoSemNada) is BTN with 9♣ J♣
34521 (UTG) raises to 4,800, 3 players fold, ShowerTHinker (CO) calls 4,800, 1MilhaoSemNada (BU) calls 4,800, 2 players fold

Flop: (19,920) 9♦ J♠ 6♠ (3 players)
34521 (UTG) checks, ShowerTHinker (CO) checks, 1MilhaoSemNada (BU) bets 9,960, 34521 (UTG) folds, ShowerTHinker (CO) raises to 19,920, 1MilhaoSemNada (BU) raises to 68,707 (all-in), ShowerTHinker (CO) calls 48,787

Turn: (157,334) 3♦ (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (157,334) Q♣ (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: 157,334

Showdown:
1MilhaoSemNada (BU) shows 9♣ J♣ (two pair, Jacks and Nines)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 31%, Flop: 82%, Turn: 93%, River: 0%)

ShowerTHinker (CO) shows J♥ Q♦ (two pair, Queens and Jacks)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 69%, Flop: 18%, Turn: 7%, River: 100%)

ShowerTHinker (CO) wins 157,334

Thank U 4 posting

ICM ICM ICM Fold preflop this is not the hand we want to gamble with versus the huge stack UTG raiser when we can let smaller stacks bust or better yet- let's attack the smaller stacks ourselves.
It is not a sign of weakness to avoid the biggest stack on the FT. It is smart FT strategy.

We need to know what our best FT strategy is based on our stack size in each moment of the FT.

Ohh and the other player that called also had the ability to get all in and not be knocked out by us so we were gambling vs 2 players as well not just 1

Hope this helps