CCOP ME .. how should this have been played ?

jaymfc

jaymfc

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Stacks: - klitkat with 5810 - Biffle16 with 4950 - pokerkatps with 4980 - luvspoker2 with 4350 - jaymfc with 4780 - vanaus1 with 4970 - ChuckTs with 5110 - Irexes with 5050

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Blinds: 10/20
Site: pokerstars
* - Dealt to jaymfc:
4d.gif
4h.gif

* - Sklansky group 7
Preflop:
**- 1 players fold.
* - luvspoker2 calls [20]
* - jaymfc calls [20]
**- 1 players fold.
* - chuckts raises 70 to 90
**- 3 players fold.
* - luvspoker2 calls [70]
* - jaymfc calls [70]
* - Total folds this street: 5
* - Potsize: 300
Flop:
ac.gif
qs.gif
4c.gif

* - luvspoker2 bets [40]
* - jaymfc calls [40]
* - chuckts raises 240 to 280
* - luvspoker2 calls [240]
* - jaymfc calls [240]
* - Potsize: 1140
Turn:
8h.gif

* - luvspoker2: checks
* - jaymfc: checks
* - chuckts bets [725]
* - luvspoker2 calls [725]
* - jaymfc calls [725]
* - Potsize: 3315
River:
9c.gif

* - luvspoker2: checks
* - jaymfc: checks
* - ChuckTs: checks
Results:
* - luvspoker2 shows a pair of Aces:
as.gif
2s.gif

* - jaymfc shows three of a kind, Fours:
4d.gif
4h.gif

* - ChuckTs doesn't show.
* - jaymfc collected 3315 from pot

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DaFrench1

DaFrench1

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Are you not happy with the way it was played?

If you had been leading the betting you probably would have bet the same amounts and with the flush draw on the river the check is probably sound too IMO so I don't think you are missing much in value. What didn't you like about it?
 
zachvac

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Please don't include results next time, but personally even without the results I think it's a mistake to check the river here. No sane person bluffs here after the action, if chuckTs had a hand worth betting it would have been worth calling your bet. Unless you actually thought you were beat, it was a mistake to check that river.
 
ChuckTs

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Up to your first flop call is fine, but after that I really didn't like how you played this (well actually I loved it while I was playing, but that was because it saved me TONS of chips :)).

If you're not going to raise the flop after I raise to 280 (a smooth call is fine), then you have to check-raise the turn. The board's too heavy, I'm showing a lot of strength at this point and you can be sure I'm going to pay you off for a good chunk of my stack.

Slowplaying, especially on that board, is terrible. Put in as many chips as you think I'll call on the flop and turn. You'll get lots of action from luvspoker who seems to think that any TP is good, and some decent action from me.
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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Please don't include results next time, but personally even without the results I think it's a mistake to check the river here. No sane person bluffs here after the action, if chuckTs had a hand worth betting it would have been worth calling your bet. Unless you actually thought you were beat, it was a mistake to check that river.

I'm not so sure about it being a mistake to check the river - a lot of the draws that were out there got filled in on the river. It'd certainly be a very thin value bet if you made one here.

A blocking bet, maybe, I could understand.

I tend to agree with Chuck about raising the turn - primarily because if either of your opponents are on a draw, you want to be charging them the maximum possible to draw against you and you want to get their money in the pot while they're still willing.

I don't mind flat calling the flop for the sake of disguising your hand, but there was definitely more money to be made on the turn. If a scare card comes on the river (as happened in this hand) you aren't going to be able to value bet, and if a non-scare card comes you won't have any of the draws calling you anyway.
 
JRaD

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I would've been more aggressive but that's just me, if anyone had a strong ace they would've called but the river did leave you up to to a big decision. But you won the hand GJ :)
 
beardyian

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On the flop you face nice big cards in the A+Q with one bet out already i would have raised presuming that they had hit something and also to try and price out any possible caller on a flush draw.

A re-raise of Mr Chuck would certainly been required and i am curious as to why you checked on the turn? - here you were giving a free card to a possible flush draw :eek:

As it happened you won the hand :) but that flush could have hurt.
 
JRaD

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On the flop you face nice big cards in the A+Q with one bet out already i would have raised presuming that they had hit something and also to try and price out any possible caller on a flush draw.

A re-raise of Mr Chuck would certainly been required and i am curious as to why you checked on the turn? - here you were giving a free card to a possible flush draw :eek:

As it happened you won the hand :) but that flush could have hurt.

My Thoughts exactly :) could've gotten paid pretty nicely if you played a little more aggressive
 
aliengenius

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I would have put luvspoker2 on the flush draw personally. It's great that she is getting trapped in the middle here, but check raising the turn (or even flop) is clearly the better line.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

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Yeah, please c/r the turn, it looks horribly passive as played considering you've hit a near-perfect flop for your set (you will get action from Ax and flush draws). Then proceeding to call on a blank turn is pretty baffling to be honest - a lot of players overuse the checkraise but I'd find it hard to manufacture a more ideal opportunity to do so than on the turn in this hand.

I don't know why you were so passive here - were you genuinely afraid you were beat? You're losing to two hands realistically on the turn - AA and QQ, and both your opponents ranges are pretty wide (and I would bet my life savings at 10-1 that luvspoker doesn't have AA/QQ here, leaving us with only Chuck to worry about and a ton of dead money in the pot).

I really don't know about the river. I agree with AG in that luvspoker is by far the more likely to be on the flush draw here, and given that she's checked there's certainly a case for value betting, but on the other hand (a) getting raised/checkraised would suck mightily, and (b) i can't imagine a lot of worse hands are calling us.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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obv i was just writing with reference to the action in the hand up to the turn (but I guess you knew that ;))
 
S

switch0723

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i agree with check raising on turn,

but i also agree to checking the river worried about luvs hand to be honest. They called turn without the odds to the flush draw, so unless they were chasing they clearly had a hand. So while reading through i was worried about luvs having a higher set since he seemed to like the hand enough to call big bets, and didnt see hte need to raise for protection.

Based on this i check/call the river willing to take down the pot as it is worried about luvs check raising the river. Of course their hand wasnt as good as first though and was pretty awful.
 
ChuckTs

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fwiw I had luv pinned on a FD or a weak ace here; wasn't sure about jay. Maybe another weak ace/gutshot/FD or possibly a slowplayed monster but I really doubted it given how draw heavy the board was.
 
J

jeffred1111

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Please c/r turn for a lot to price out the flush draw and get out max value from Ax or even AQ if you are lucky. I basically never flat call here since the flush card could hit, killing our action even if nobody has it (wich it did).

Had you not first called on the flop, I would like a reraise since this is the kind of board that nobody figure you have a set, but a big draw that wants to get it in and you can get a shove for protection from Ax/AQ.
 
DaFrench1

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fwiw I had luv pinned on a FD or a weak ace here; wasn't sure about jay. Maybe another weak ace/gutshot/FD or possibly a slowplayed monster but I really doubted it given how draw heavy the board was.

So, out of interest, what did you have here?
 
dj11

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Here is a great place for the min raise. You've got players you know are fairly good, and a minraise will be looking like a raggy ACE, or the flush draw early, then a possible 2 pair hand.


Early in that game this hand could have killed that pesky bird.

So Jay, it is your fault AG didn't win this!:rolleyes:

roflmao
 
ChuckTs

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Here is a bad place for the min raise. You've got players you know are fairly good, and a minraise will be looking like a set.

fyp :)

Had jay played this straight forward and just value bet his hand to the river he could very well have stacked me. Had he smooth called the flop then minraised my flop raise I probably would have instamucked.
 
DaFrench1

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fyp :)

Had jay played this straight forward and just value bet his hand to the river he could very well have stacked me. Had he smooth called the flop then minraised my flop raise I probably would have instamucked.


So that puts you on AQ?
 
DaFrench1

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I just wanted to look at the hand from a different view, its got to be AQ, or maybe AK, Q8s? (or outrageous bluff?), because you seemed pretty determined to take it down on the turn.

I don't know how Luvspoker2 makes that call on the turn but I think that was enough to justify Jaymfc's check on the river as has been stated by others. I actually think that this call is what messes Jay up on the river because if he gets you HU then you DO get stacked there if you are AQ, the check-raise would also have no doubt come on the turn even had Luvspoker2 folded there.

So I think her call messed the hand up for him but as she did call then I think he played it as well as he could with the information he had, and the 725 extra that Luvspoker2 throws in was a small compensation for not being able to stack you.
 
ChuckTs

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I agree about the river - it's far from the worst part of the hand imo. I definitely thought at least one of them was drawing which of course killed 44's action, but that's precisely why he should be raising earlier streets.

Get more chips in the middle earlier in the hand (flop, turn) to make the draws pay, to get full value from TP or top two pair hands while you still can, ie before a flush hits and kills your action.
 
jaymfc

jaymfc

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Are you not happy with the way it was played?

If you had been leading the betting you probably would have bet the same amounts and with the flush draw on the river the check is probably sound too IMO so I don't think you are missing much in value. What didn't you like about it?

I wasn't happy about the way I played it and could feel it all the way thru the hand. I was crushed when the club hit the river and knew then I may have blown it .

#1 it was early and I was scurred to get to crazy without the nuts, this was a very important event for me and my highest buy in ever.
#2 I wanted to CR the flop but when luvs bet out and I knew chuck wasn't going to put up with a mini bet in the face of his PFR , I flat called ,chuck raised on cue , then luvs flat called and I was kinda lost and decided to just call and see another card.
luvs and I checked to the bettor and he came out strong , I'm thinking it could be aa or qq but more like aq and ready to RR till luvs flat calls the big bet , didn't know what to put her on , hoping another painted ace. either one could have been on FD so

here is where I would normally RR but was torn between keeping luvs in or getting it down to HU. I was sure more moneys were going in on the river.

I would have come out strong on the river except for the fact the club scurred the hell out of me.

as I said I knew I wasn't playing it right but didn't know what the correct way was , hence this thread. :D
 
ChuckTs

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Just think about it this way, jay. You're WAY ahead of my range here and want to stack AQ/Ax here. The only way you're going to do it is by putting in more money before the draw hits - I'm usually going to try to exercise pot control with AK here so you won't see me bet that river very often. Also, don't worry about not getting action with a set, especially on this board.

If you wait until the river, you're either going to see the flush draw check-fold (lost value) or you're going to see the flush/straight hit and it will make it very hard to put more bets in. Put more money in earlier on a draw-heavy board and expect to get paid off.

fwiw I mucked AKs here.
 
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