Calling range?

[t1riel]

i take it you don't play rebuys much/ever chase and t1riel?

I seemed to overlook the fact it's a rebuy tournament. In that case, A, J or better. I don't get involved with rebuy tournaments. They are almost as bad as freerolls.

 

[vanquish]

I bet you Ivey snapcalls here with like K7.

 

[ChuckTs]

I seemed to overlook the fact it's a rebuy tournament. In that case, A, J or better. I don't get involved with rebuy tournaments. They are almost as bad as freerolls.

Bad in what way? As in there's lots of gambling going on? If so, why is that bad?

 

[benevg]

I bet you Ivey snapcalls here with like K7.

hmm, who's going to ask him?

 

[ChuckTs]

OK I'm a little jumbled at the moment so this may be wrong...

If we're calling based on when we're a favorite vs his hand range [ATC given he'd actually shown down 32o], then we should be calling with: (A2+, A2s+, K2+, K2s+, Q5+, Q2s+, J8+, J6s+, T9+, T7s+, 98s+, 22+). Much wider than even the looser players suggested in this thread.

 

[tosborn]

OK I'm a little jumbled at the moment so this may be wrong...

If we're calling based on when we're a favorite vs his hand range [ATC given he'd actually shown down 32o], then we should be calling with: (A2+, A2s+, K2+, K2s+, Q5+, Q2s+, J8+, J6s+, T9+, T7s+, 98s+, 22+). Much wider than even the looser players suggested in this thread.

I agree that we should be calling with your range above. However, I like a little more edge than this, unless we really want to gamble. My range would be (A7+, K9+, Q8+, J8+, 76s+, 22+). I personally don't like to play the tiny kickers, because we lose so much pair value as they can be counterfeited so easily.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

OK I'm a little jumbled at the moment so this may be wrong...

If we're calling based on when we're a favorite vs his hand range [ATC given he'd actually shown down 32o], then we should be calling with: (A2+, A2s+, K2+, K2s+, Q5+, Q2s+, J8+, J6s+, T9+, T7s+, 98s+, 22+). Much wider than even the looser players suggested in this thread.

If we had 3000 chips I would suggest something close to this sort of range. As it is, although our stack is only three times its initial size, that still represents an increase. Although the diminishing value of chips doesn't apply so much in rebuys, it still applies, and we should tighten up as our stack increases (until our stack becomes of such a size that villain's shove is insignificant, anyway).

Basically, we don't want to accept 51/49s here because losing 3k chips represents a loss of value which is greater than the gain of value in gaining 3k chips.

Actually, thinking about it, even with 3k chips we can't call quite as broadly as you suggest, as if we lose 3k we will double rebuy, our chip stack will remain the same and we will lose $6 (if this is the $3r), but if we double up we're not gaining $6 in tournament equity.

 

[robwhufc]

I agree that we should be calling with your range above. However, I like a little more edge than this, unless we really want to gamble. My range would be (A7+, K9+, Q8+, J8+, 76s+, 22+). I personally don't like to play the tiny kickers, because we lose so much pair value as they can be counterfeited so easily.

Heads up you would call with 7 6 suited, but fold A 6 offsuit?

 

[tosborn]

Villain is a maniac and has pushed literally every hand

Against this villain I would. I personally like connectors and probably skew my range in favor of them just a little.

Please note that this is also read dependent on what the blinds are like. My range shrinks if I think that there is the possibility of either of the blinds gambling with any two also. I wouldn't want to play three handed with this entire range.

 

[dj11]

All this can be refuted by the simple "it's a rebuy" argument.

We've accumulated chips? It's a rebuy, we only have three times our starting stack (assuming we rebought immediately), and three times our starting stack is not enough to sit back on.

Why should we not wait for a 'top' hand? It's a rebuy - villain may get bored, lose a few more hands and quit shortly, we might get moved around tables, villain could go on a heater, multiply his stack by 10 and quit shoving every hand, we might not get any huge hands we can call with. Basically, the list of variables is large, and due to the very nature of rebuys we should be looking to accumulate chips wherever possible, whether it be with 55% equity or with 80% equity.

We're not 'coinflipping' either. A range of 77+/AK-A8/KQ-KJ has ~66% equity against a range of any two cards. Obviously we need to be aware of the possibility of SB or BB having a huge hand and calling, but this is unlikely and so doesn't affect things too much.

Finally, umm, how is it possible to get a better read on anyone than the "Is shoving any two cards preflop" read we have on villain at the moment?

If we had 3000 chips I would suggest something close to this sort of range. As it is, although our stack is only three times its initial size, that still represents an increase. Although the diminishing value of chips doesn't apply so much in rebuys, it still applies, and we should tighten up as our stack increases (until our stack becomes of such a size that villain's shove is insignificant, anyway).

Basically, we don't want to accept 51/49s here because losing 3k chips represents a loss of value which is greater than the gain of value in gaining 3k chips.

Actually, thinking about it, even with 3k chips we can't call quite as broadly as you suggest, as if we lose 3k we will double rebuy, our chip stack will remain the same and we will lose $6 (if this is the $3r), but if we double up we're not gaining $6 in tournament equity.

Your two arguments don't seem to jive DM. In the first case you advocate to play here because it is a rebuy, while in the 2nd case you seem to have changed positions and find -EV.

To me, and many, the 'It's a Rebuy' argument holds no water. It screams that at times you can abandon good poker because you can lose and rebuy and end up just where you were if you played sane. Albeit out the cost of a rebuy.

The only good argument I can see for getting in a rebuy is that you will likely run into maniacs who will blow lots of money your way if you are willing to accept it.

 

[robwhufc]

Your two arguments don't seem to jive DM. In the first case you advocate to play here because it is a rebuy, while in the 2nd case you seem to have changed positions and find -EV.

His first post was in reply to someone who'd fold JJ and below, the 2nd post was to someone who was suggesting playing 98s and above. He's allowed to disagree with both cos that's a huge difference isn't it?

 

[tosborn]

To me, and many, the 'It's a Rebuy' argument holds no water. It screams that at times you can abandon good poker because you can lose and rebuy and end up just where you were if you played sane. Albeit out the cost of a rebuy.

The only good argument I can see for getting in a rebuy is that you will likely run into maniacs who will blow lots of money your way if you are willing to accept it.

DJ do you agree that in poker we want to expoit our edges?

'It's a Rebuy' is basically saying that we want to capitalize on our opponents mistakes and take most 51/49 opportunities to double up. Not because we are abandoning good poker. But, because we have the rebuy option we can press our edges and if we lose WE CAN REBUY. Our tourney life is not on the line. This stage of the rebuy is played more like a cash game where we want to get our money in while ahead +EV.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

His first post was in reply to someone who'd fold JJ and below, the 2nd post was to someone who was suggesting playing 98s and above. He's allowed to disagree with both cos that's a huge difference isn't it?

I was gonna type up an extended response, but this sums it up tbh.

 

[blankoblanco]

OK I'm a little jumbled at the moment so this may be wrong...

If we're calling based on when we're a favorite vs his hand range [ATC given he'd actually shown down 32o], then we should be calling with: (A2+, A2s+, K2+, K2s+, Q5+, Q2s+, J8+, J6s+, T9+, T7s+, 98s+, 22+). Much wider than even the looser players suggested in this thread.

i actually don't think there's much of anything wrong with calling super wide. i think i like a somewhat stronger range better just because a) some % of the time we'll get called behind us, so we'd like to have at least something for those cases. and b) you have to draw a line somewhere and i draw my line at 55%. i want 55% or better of an edge, probably not 51%. however, there are a lot of good/pro MTT players who have a rebuy philosophy that differs, and they'd probably shove if they knew they were 40% let alone 51%. they play to build a gigantic stack no matter what, and they get a good amount of high finishes. i can't say which philosophy is better, i only know that these nitty tight philosophies are bad

so you could still widen the range to make it so we're probably 55% against him. i was just guesstimating, and one can definitely go somewhat wider now that i think about it

 

[ChuckTs]

Nice comments, guys.

I think the size of your bankroll in relation to the buyin (ie rebuy cost) is probably a big factor too. If you're a tank with the big stack and rebuying doesn't even tickle your bankroll, then taking the gambles is fine.

Myself, I probably shouldn't have even been playing the $3+R considering my bankroll, and I'm not a perfect player either, so I decided to fold the QJ. I knew I was ahead of a range of ATC, but hesitated anyways.

Chris' point about the value of winning the 3k being < the value of losing 3k is interesting too, but again I think this is a little dependent of how dominant you are with the big stack.

 

[dj11]

I, for one, am glad we could be of service, as without doubt, you are no longer in doubt about all this.

 

[Chase_0101]

Finally, umm, how is it possible to get a better read on anyone than the "Is shoving any two cards preflop" read we have on villain at the moment?

This isn't a read imo. He could have anything from AA to 32o. Calling him with a widened range is playing the odds (stated earlier ~65% odds). However, you certainly don't have any reads on his hand. We essentially have no clue what he has if we call, but the fact that he is playing so loose gives us odds to call.

Also, thank you for your advice. I guess I just need to learn more about rebuys and this thread is helping. Obviously I'm happy I've never played them.

One more question for you Chuck... just out of curiosity why didn't you call with the QJ? Bad feel or are you limiting yourself to at least K high given his loose nature?

 

[ChuckTs]

One more question for you Chuck... just out of curiosity why didn't you call with the QJ? Bad feel or are you limiting yourself to at least K high given his loose nature?

Basically this:

Myself, I probably shouldn't have even been playing the $3+R considering my bankroll, and I'm not a perfect player either, so I decided to fold the QJ. I knew I was ahead of a range of ATC, but hesitated anyways.

My bankroll can't sustain a large number of rebuys ATM, and I didn't feel the need to make a more marginal call there. In retrospect I probably would have called with KQ+, AT+ and most pairs, but I posted this thread because at the moment I really wasn't sure.

 

[naruto_miu]

I would have to say, A9,A10,AJ,AQ,AK,KQ,KJ,QJ, suited connectors, and mid pairs, and by mid i mean no lower then 7s.
I mean it's more then likely this player is just going for the double up quickly, but then again u don't want to also give any chips back that u really don't have to either. Hope that helps