Calling range?

ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Villain is a maniac and has pushed literally every hand where he has the double rebuy or less. He's basically looking to get a lucky double up.

What's our calling range (assuming everyone folds to us)?

Stacks: - UTG with 8550 - UTG+1 with 3090 - UTG+2 with 2950 - UTG+3 with 7050 - UTG+4 with 5950 - CO with 1500 - BTN with 8800 - SB with 2630 - BB with 2250
index.pl

Blinds: 10/20
Site: Pokerstars
Holecards:
- BTN (Hero) is dealt XX
Preflop:
- UTG+1 raises 3070 to 3090 [ all-in ]
 
skoldpadda

skoldpadda

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any other callers?
you've already nearly tripled your double rebuy (assuming 3000) so I'd be more inclined to tighten up. I'd say 1010+ or A10s+, AJ+, KQ.
But with blinds at 10/20 you can easily be more maniacal and go for an even bigger early stack.
 
OzExorcist

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While rebuys are far from my specialty, I'd probably agree - you're in decent shape so there's probably no need to take a risk with small PPs or suited connectors.

If villain is doing this often, then it's probably not even that big a missed opportunity - chances are they'll be shoving again when you do wake up with a hand.
 
t1riel

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Call me tight but I would say Pocket Queens or better this early in the tournament.
 
vanquish

vanquish

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77+, AK-A9, KQ, KJ - would be where I would draw the line

(Had same experience in one of my previous scores on PP)
 
blankoblanco

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Call me tight but I would say Pocket Queens or better this early in the tournament.

tight!

it's a rebuy and the guy's pushing every hand. van's range is good.. could add 66, maybe even A8 but that's getting pretty marginal
 
C

Chase_0101

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I agree with T1riel. I call with AA, KK, QQ.... maybe JJ. I want a made hand to make this call. But that's my opinion and what I would probably do with my stack.

To answer the question, we're up against essentially any two cards here. Technically we can loosen up a bit and call with a wider range of hands, one of which was already given.
 
blankoblanco

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okay i wasn't even going to regard it but now that someone actually agreed. AA-QQ, maybe JJ? that's awful, and it's really not a matter of opinion whether it is or not. it's straight awful and burning EV given the description. i take it you don't play rebuys much/ever chase and t1riel?
 
Irexes

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It's a rebuy, he's a nut, if you don't push edges here then stick to freezeouts :)

77+ A8+ KQ
 
robwhufc

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Any pair, Ace high and King high for me.
 
Four Dogs

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Villain is a maniac and has pushed literally every hand where he has the double rebuy or less. He's basically looking to get a lucky double up.

lol. You mean like this?;)

pokerstars GAME #12326057487: TOURNAMENT #61825979, $3.00+$0.30 HOLD'EM NO LIMIT - LEVEL I (10/20) - 2007/09/28 - 20:03:36 (ET)
Table '61825979 80' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: Gruffo (4800 in chips)
Seat 2: libere (1470 in chips)
Seat 3: allgra1 (1450 in chips)
Seat 4: TOBYG1 (2970 in chips)
Seat 5: RL1D (3000 in chips) out of hand (moved from another table into small blind)
Seat 6: olegmaliy (1480 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 7: ChuckTs (2990 in chips)
Seat 8: sleepyted (2840 in chips)
Seat 9: mark98 (1500 in chips)
olegmaliy: posts small blind 10
ChuckTs: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ChuckTs [3c Ah]
sleepyted: calls 20
mark98: folds
Gruffo: folds
libere: calls 20
allgra1: calls 20
TOBYG1: calls 20
olegmaliy: folds
ChuckTs: raises 2970 to 2990 and is all-in
sleepyted: folds
libere: folds
allgra1: calls 1430 and is all-in
TOBYG1: folds
*** FLOP *** [Ad Qd Kd]
*** TURN *** [Ad Qd Kd] [9h]
*** RIVER *** [Ad Qd Kd 9h] [Jc]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ChuckTs: shows [3c Ah] (a pair of Aces)
allgra1: shows [Kh Qs] (two pair, Kings and Queens)
allgra1 collected 2970 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2970 | Rake 0
Board [Ad Qd Kd 9h Jc]
Seat 1: Gruffo folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: libere folded before Flop
Seat 3: allgra1 showed [Kh Qs] and won (2970) with two pair, Kings and Queens
Seat 4: TOBYG1 (button) folded before Flop
Seat 6: olegmaliy (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: ChuckTs (big blind) showed [3c Ah] and lost with a pair of Aces
Seat 8: sleepyted folded before Flop
Seat 9: mark98 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

I guess we know your calling range now.
 
Last edited:
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Chase_0101

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I agree my decision to play tight here with a made hand may be awful when you consider all the numbers and equations, and the second half of my post addressed that. I never disagreed with widening the calling range but I did start with my opinion (which is exactly that - as awful as it may be).

I just see a situation where we are the chip leader against an extremely loose player who is raising all in with anything looking for a lucky double up. Honestly, why should I risk my chips with a sub-par (possibly dominated) hand I ordinarily would not play instead of waiting for a good (likely dominating) hand to bust this guy? Yes, we can still rebuy and so can he - but we've accumulated chips already and I see no point in throwing them away in a coin toss "just because we can buy more."

That said - you are correct - I do not normally play rebuys. I don't feel like I understand them so I won't even try. I am not arguing at all but apparently need advice. I DO see the reasoning behind why playing a wider range of hands is beneficial here given the numbers and the odds. However, I do NOT see why playing tight here and letting someone else potentially take the fall (or the chips) who we may have a better read on is that bad of a play.

Enlightenment please? Or a link (again, I'm just trying to learn).
 
benevg

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i may be just repeating what everyone else pretty much said, but i'd call with a pair (7or)8+, A9+ or K10+. even if he doubles up through me, it's not the end of the tournament - 5700 seems like enough of a stack to work with from that point on (and ~12000 is just awesome). :)
 
dj11

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Sitting in the position described, I'd play it so tight my butt would be cramping!

Wait till you wake up with a real hand, or have position and can make a normal raise in front of him. Often the maniac will back down in the face of a probable real hand.
 
ChuckTs

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lol. You mean like this?;)

Exactly :)

But really, villain had shown down T7s, 23s, Q9o - the list goes on.

I'm really surprised at some of the responses...like Rex said, if we're not pushing our edges in the rebuy period then we shouldn't be playing rebuys. The fact that we can rebuy gives us the opportunity to take these gambles.

At this point, I'm not trying to conserve my stack and stick to premiums. I'm trying to build on it as much as possible and become one of the big stacks to give me the best possible shot at 1st.

I was debating calling with QJo here, but folded.
 
dj11

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I actually won a seat in a rebuy, but still don't like them. I rebought 3 times, and was reading threads and forgot the add-on. Started the 2nd hour in bad shape, but hit a rush and was chip leader 4 hands later.

I'm interested Chuck, how many rebuys are you usually willing to make in any one tourney?
 
ChuckTs

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Well that depends what state my bankroll's in and what the buyin is.

I'm on a downswing and only have a ~650 bankroll right now, and that allows for around 10 rebuys. I'll go nuts with it and take more if needed, and if my bankroll allows.
 
dj11

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That surprises me. 10 rebuys!, wow.

Seems if you are willing to do that as a regular plan that it might be more +EV to play in bigger fixed buyin events. I am thinking that if you went to 3 times your normal size tourneys, and stopped with the rebuys, you would end up better, with a less stretched concept of play.

But I welcome a counter argument about why your scheme is better. As I said, I don't like rebuys much, but perhaps it is because I don't understand the concept they way you do.

If I could get out of the seat I won, I would, it leads to a tourney where the rebuys /add-ons will be way over my bankroll. It turns out even getting in the Super Sat was not such a good idea.
 
ChuckTs

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Sorry, dj, I calculated wrong.

tbh I haven't played rebuys for a while after hitting a significant downswing and not having a bankroll to support the style I like (loose :)). Again, it all depends on the size of your bankroll and how many rebuys you can squeeze into that %5 or %2 or whatever rule you're using for MTTs.

The reason I play loose is so I can build a massive stack compared to the blinds; that way I give myself the most room to manoeuvre (sp?) and give myself the best chance at going deep and ultimately winning. Rebuys are a whole different animal.
 
V

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Hmm... I'm not big into rebuys, but since we have chips to play with, and he is pushing with any two, then I'd probably call with anything in the top 20-25%. What is that? 22+, A8+, KJ+? Something like that, I think. Maybe a tad tighter given that there are two players yet to act, but I think our call may freeze out the action.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

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I agree my decision to play tight here with a made hand may be awful when you consider all the numbers and equations, and the second half of my post addressed that. I never disagreed with widening the calling range but I did start with my opinion (which is exactly that - as awful as it may be).

I just see a situation where we are the chip leader against an extremely loose player who is raising all in with anything looking for a lucky double up. Honestly, why should I risk my chips with a sub-par (possibly dominated) hand I ordinarily would not play instead of waiting for a good (likely dominating) hand to bust this guy? Yes, we can still rebuy and so can he - but we've accumulated chips already and I see no point in throwing them away in a coin toss "just because we can buy more."

That said - you are correct - I do not normally play rebuys. I don't feel like I understand them so I won't even try. I am not arguing at all but apparently need advice. I DO see the reasoning behind why playing a wider range of hands is beneficial here given the numbers and the odds. However, I do NOT see why playing tight here and letting someone else potentially take the fall (or the chips) who we may have a better read on is that bad of a play.

Enlightenment please? Or a link (again, I'm just trying to learn).

All this can be refuted by the simple "it's a rebuy" argument.

We've accumulated chips? It's a rebuy, we only have three times our starting stack (assuming we rebought immediately), and three times our starting stack is not enough to sit back on.

Why should we not wait for a 'top' hand? It's a rebuy - villain may get bored, lose a few more hands and quit shortly, we might get moved around tables, villain could go on a heater, multiply his stack by 10 and quit shoving every hand, we might not get any huge hands we can call with. Basically, the list of variables is large, and due to the very nature of rebuys we should be looking to accumulate chips wherever possible, whether it be with 55% equity or with 80% equity.

We're not 'coinflipping' either. A range of 77+/AK-A8/KQ-KJ has ~66% equity against a range of any two cards. Obviously we need to be aware of the possibility of SB or BB having a huge hand and calling, but this is unlikely and so doesn't affect things too much.

Finally, umm, how is it possible to get a better read on anyone than the "Is shoving any two cards preflop" read we have on villain at the moment?
 
O

ol_sin

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Call me tight but I would say Pocket Queens or better this early in the tournament.

agreed.

you are a chip leader and blinds are low. Why risk 3/8 of your stack so early in the tournament when the blinds are so low?

and if you fold, gets what, 30? definitely not enough to defend.

why are you guys pointing out that its a rebuy? even if you did lose and rebought, you'd have to work your way back up to 8000.

let someone else at the table risk losing their chips, you should tighten up.
 
blankoblanco

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agreed.

you are a chip leader and blinds are low. Why risk 3/8 of your stack so early in the tournament when the blinds are so low?

because it's POKER and you're supposed to press edges. you think you're going to get the money in when they're drawing dead every time? good luck with that.

almost every single one of the best pros out there, when questioned, have preached that nobody is good enough to pass up small edges in an MTT. greg raymer himself said on 2+2 he wouldn't hesitate to put all his money in if he knew he was a 55% favorite or better in a freezeout. in this situation we can use the looser calling ranges provided and be at least a 65% favorite against villain's range. add in the fact that it's not even for all our chips and we're in the rebuy period, and making your range as tight as you're suggesting is indefensibly bad.

many people around here don't understand the nature of MTTs at all yet preach as though they do, and it's a bit frustrating to me because it's spreading misinformation and bad advice on the boards

okay guys, phil ivey isn't good enough to pass up a 60% edge in a freezeout MTT, but i'm sure you're good enough to pass up a better edge in a rebuy

why are you guys pointing out that its a rebuy?

because ITS A REBUY
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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why are you guys pointing out that its a rebuy?

Sorry to be so blunt, but the very fact that you're asking this question shows that you have no clue about effective rebuy strategy.
 
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