Bet to See Where We Stand...?

Melkor

Melkor

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pokerstars Game #17112022174: Tournament #86567055, $2.00+$0.20 Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2008/04/30 - 20:58:11 (ET)
Table '86567055 27' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: spoksLV (4427 in chips)
Seat 2: Uwe W73 (3700 in chips)
Seat 3: Chuck36I (325 in chips)
Seat 4: moostacheo (3128 in chips)
Seat 5: pokerlake (825 in chips)
Seat 6: clikpas (5392 in chips)
Seat 7: Melkor123 (3910 in chips)
Seat 8: chicco99 (768 in chips)
Seat 9: cdupra (1623 in chips)
Uwe W73: posts small blind 25
Chuck36I: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Melkor123 [6h 6d]
moostacheo: calls 50
pokerlake: folds
clikpas: calls 50
Melkor123: calls 50
chicco99: folds
cdupra: folds
spoksLV: calls 50
Uwe W73: calls 25
Chuck36I: checks
*** FLOP *** [3d 6s 5c]
Uwe W73: checks
Chuck36I: bets 275 and is all-in
moostacheo: folds
clikpas: calls 275
Melkor123: raises 475 to 750
spoksLV: folds
Uwe W73: folds
clikpas: calls 475
*** TURN *** [3d 6s 5c] [2h]
clikpas: checks
Melkor123: ??

Decent stack size at early to mid stage of this MTT. Just moved to this table so no real reads yet, now a danger card has come, and a strange check by villain, is a bet now vital to see where we stand? What sort of bet size will do the trick?

What can we put villain on after flop? Was my flop bet too small? Questions, questions!
 
Joe Slick

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I think you've got to put him on a small pocket pair, hopefully not 44. If it was 33 or 55 I think you would have been reraised. It could he's slow playing pocket 22, 33, or 55 and isn't worried about the straight since I don't think he can put you on a 4.

I don't think your flop bet was too small as long as you were looking for some post-flop action. Now that you have it, what do you do with it?

I think your next move here is to bet 1000 and see what happens. If he shoves, it comes down to whether or not you believe he has a 4. Even if he does, you've got outs for the boat or quads.

In your shoes, I think I'd be ready to commit no matter what he does.
 
Jillychemung

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Your flop raise gives clikpas almost 4:1 pot odds so he could be calling your raise there with a lot of hands. I'd size my raise about 1100 on the flop. As for how it was played I'd check here and call any smallish bet on the river.
 
OzExorcist

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Chuck36I: bets 275 and is all-in

Most important line, IMO.

For starters, it makes the other villain's check on the turn much less suspicious - there's a good chance he's holding something like A3/A5 and is just trying to check the hand down to maximise the chances of the all-in player being eliminated.

Also, some players will call reasonable sized bets with middle-pair type hands in these situations because, again, they think it'll maximise the chances of the other player being eliminated. Amusing piece of tournament dogma that some people stick to more rigidly than others.

A4 and 44 are possibilities, but I think you're ahead a good chunk of the time here. I probably value bet this all the way to the end now that there's something in the side pot to play for. If you're especially scared of the straight though or you want to adopt a zero-risk strategy, just take the free river card. You could make a boat for free, or you might get to see a showdown without putting in any more money.

So to answer the question: no, I don't think you need to bet this to 'see where you are'. I think you bet this for value.
 
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p0K35

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don't bet for value here, just check the free card, and if you happen to fill up, you can value bet then.

more important to felt a player, than overplay an allin.

And, yes I do realize there is a nibble size sidepot...
 
odinscott

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don't bet for value here, just check the free card, and if you happen to fill up, you can value bet then.

more important to felt a player, than overplay an allin.

And, yes I do realize there is a nibble size sidepot...

Really I have to disagree with this one, I would try to value bet and bleed them out. Although there is that chance that they were slow playing or they hit their straight, in a hand like this, feeling that I am ahead, I would try to extract as many chips as possible. If you really think that you are beat, then go ahead and check, but I wouldnt check or shove, I would try to put something out there that they can call. If they shove on you, then you know you are probably beat.
 
zachvac

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What better hand calls a bet? This is a spot where we'd love to see a free card. If he has a lower set he'll call a river bet from a blank. If the river pairs the board we stack another set (unless of course it gives them quads). But this is where we use our position to our advantage. If he checks a second time we can assume he doesn't have the straight (all-in empty pot principle doesn't apply here, we've got practically 1000 chips in the side pot) and bet for pure value. If he has a set he'll almost definitely call a smallish bet and we get paid off. For what holding is a bet on the turn better than a check? Betting "to see where we stand" is a horrible reason. We have position, I'd check behind, see what he does, and react to that. We have several cards that will give us a great hand, and our checking behind basically means he'd most definitely bet his straight for value on the river, expecting us to check behind again. I like checking behind, calling a smallish bet on the river and obviously stacking if we fill up or hit quads.
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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My biggest problem with checking the turn here is that we don't make anywhere near as much from a river bet if we give away the free card.

I think it's fairly likely we have the best hand right now, and villain's holding something like one pair (maybe an overpair), which he'll be very keen to see a cheap showdown with.

So I'd throw them a bet they almost have to call if they have any sort of a hand.

If we bet, say, 300-350 here, we'll be able to make a slightly bigger bet on the river and extract more in total out of them. If we check here, we can't expect a hand we beat to call more than the original 300-350 on the river. So we're losing a bet.

Of course, there is the chance we bet and they fold, even if it's a teensy little bet. But in that case, we probably wouldn't have gotten river action anyway (unless we were beat) and we'll have the free sidepot money to console ourselves with, and likely the main pot as well.

There's also the chance that we're beat, but TBH, I think it's a small chance in this spot. Personally, I'd be more worried about a 4 coming on the river and counterfeiting us.
 
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p0K35

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Really I have to disagree with this one, I would try to value bet and bleed them out....

why, you have a tourney, allin, don't fight over the scraps, get a player out, fight the next hand.

Or not, have no respect for the allin, and hopefully bust out yourself?
 
OzExorcist

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why, you have a tourney, allin, don't fight over the scraps, get a player out, fight the next hand.

Or not, have no respect for the allin, and hopefully bust out yourself?

A few things:

First, judging by the size of the blinds, we're pretty early in this tournament. Knocking a player out isn't as important now as it will become later on.

Second, there's almost as much money in the side pot as there is in the main pot. It's not like we're bluffing into a dry side pot or anything: we have a legitimate hand, and there's a side pot between us and the other active player that's worth going after.

Third, there's a good chance we have both players beat.

Long story short: there's a very big difference between the standard "check it down" tournament situation and this hand.
 
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p0K35

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A few things:

First, judging by the size of the blinds, we're pretty early in this tournament. Knocking a player out isn't as important now as it will become later on.

ok, fine, but busting a player, is always important...

Second, there's almost as much money in the side pot as there is in the main pot. It's not like we're bluffing into a dry side pot or anything: we have a legitimate hand, and there's a side pot between us and the other active player that's worth going after.

Bluffing? we trying to find where we at?

..and a strange check by villain...

Strange check? check down the allin, like????

Third, there's a good chance we have both players beat.

Really!, are you sure about that? They don't have a 4?? But you're missing the point.

Long story short: there's a very big difference between the standard "check it down" tournament situation and this hand.

Another really! No there isn't, very common situation in tourneys, when there is a 3-4-5... handed allin, with a small sidepot. check it down, without risking more of your chips. If there is a good chance you're ahead, you'll win it anyway. If the other involved players, check it down, maintain standard etiquette, or not...
 
OzExorcist

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Here's the figures:

1125 in the main pot
950 in the side pot

And that's just on the flop - the side pot has the potential to be much bigger than the main pot.

If you want to adhere to check-it-down dogma, go for your life. But in a situation like this one, you're losing value that you're legitimately entitled to by doing that. No way in hell I'm letting the second player off cheap here.
 
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p0K35

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sure, fine, let's take a look at the rest of the HH.... melkor????

bet for value, or find where we at?

check is a nice safe, etiquette, play, ifffin the board prs, then make a move, else, why bother with the check it down crap?

if you don't get this, STOP posting on the tourney thread, da....
 
OzExorcist

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LOL - trust me, I understand the etiquette. It's because I understand it that I can say I think this is a situation where we can ignore it.

Transplant this hand to the bubble of a tournament, with less money in the side pot, and my response would be very different.
 
WVHillbilly

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I actually think we check the turn because if we bet here we're showing a huge amount of strength and we're only getting called/reraised by monsters. Any bet here makes the threat of getting all-in very real and if our opponent is smart he'll realize that and only remain in the hand if he's comfortable with that (bad for us).

If we check now and then bet a small amount on the river if checked to, say 500, our opponent can call with a much wider range (TP, Overpair, 2P) because he knows he doesn't have to face another bet. If he bets on the river we can call without risking our stack should our opponent have the straight. The risk of giving a free card is very small as there are very few cards that beat us no matter what our opponent holds.

Note that I don't think we check here because a third opponent is all-in. He's irrelevant. We're trying to maximize our EV against the remaining opponent and I think checking here best accomplishes that.

Edit to add: I think by betting the turn we're essentially turning our hand into a bluff because the most likely hand that bets this turn is the straight. Our hand is much too strong to turn it into a bluff.
 
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p0K35

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LOL - trust me, I understand the etiquette. It's because I understand it that I can say I think this is a situation where we can ignore it.

lol, ok, ok, fair enuff. But just realize, the player you fight over this side-pot with, may be the same player in another allin side-pot action later on in the tourney, when, bubble, itm, is on the line...

Now, you are not required to check down allins, or even allins with a sidepot, but the way you play them, can potentially come back at ya, later on. Play this one frisky, with a willing opponent, they will remember...

I'd rather get the allin out, and move onto next hand. At showdown, if you still think you are dominant, make a small value bet, and keep all players in to improve the chances the allin goes away, one less player. Regardless of when it occurs in the tourney. Just imo.
 
Melkor

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Well, I must admit, I am really beginning to see why checking would be prudent in this situation. At the time, I really thought the check was odd but I never gave it enough thought and in my mind a bet would 'show us where we stood' or at least make it clear what villain had but may also have some value attatched to it. Looks like value would be gained from checking and letting a wider range of the villains check-call on the river/go bust if I hit my boat and he has a lower set.

I do no think it is a horrible reason as if one bet can clearly define what future moves you should make in a hand then I would say that is a pretty good reason to bet. Which is what I did, larger than I should have as well. Having got my answer, the odds, both effective and implied of hitting the boat or quads, made me call.

*** TURN *** [3d 6s 5c] [2h]
clikpas: checks
Melkor123: bets 500
clikpas: raises 500 to 1000
Melkor123: calls 500
*** RIVER *** [3d 6s 5c 2h] [Jd]
clikpas: checks
Melkor123: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
clikpas: shows [4d 3s] (a straight, Deuce to Six)
Melkor123: mucks hand
clikpas collected 2950 from side pot
Chuck36I: mucks hand
clikpas collected 1125 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 4075 Main pot 1125. Side pot 2950. | Rake 0
Board [3d 6s 5c 2h Jd]
Seat 1: spoksLV (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 2: Uwe W73 (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 3: Chuck36I (big blind) mucked [8c 5d]
Seat 4: moostacheo folded on the Flop
Seat 5: pokerlake folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: clikpas showed [4d 3s] and won (4075) with a straight, Deuce to Six
Seat 7: Melkor123 mucked [6h 6d]
Seat 8: chicco99 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: cdupra folded before Flop (didn't bet)
 
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p0K35

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wow, donkey called your over raise of the allin, with bottom pr and oesd, checked the suckout, and you bet to 'find out where you at', which they reraise you, and:

You found out you're beat

AND you call, WTF is the bet for again? and check down the river?

Baffling idiocy, imo. But stupid as stupid does, Forrest...
 
OzExorcist

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I said above that we should be betting that turn for value - so while I disagree with the motivation for betting here, I still believe the action was justified.

The only difference is I probably would've bet 300 rather than 500, on the basis that it's almost impossible for a hand like A5 or 88 to fold to it. 500 runs the risk of folding some of those second-best hands out.

As it was played I'll agree, villains raise probably meant he has the straight. pOK35 has written the call off as awful, but consider the pot odds:

Total money in play = 1125 (main pot) + 2450 (side pot) = 3575
Amount it'll cost us to call = 500

The amount it'll cost us to call is only 14% of the pot. Even if we know that villain has the straight, we've still got 10 outs for either a full house or quads, and we'll hit one of those outs on the river 21.7% of the time.

Calling is clearly +EV in that spot.

Checking and conceding the pot when we don't hit on the river is 100% standard, of course.

So I don't agree with the motivation, but the actions wound up about right.
 
Melkor

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wow, donkey called your over raise of the allin, with bottom pr and oesd, checked the suckout, and you bet to 'find out where you at', which they reraise you, and:

You found out you're beat

AND you call, WTF is the bet for again? and check down the river?

Baffling idiocy, imo. But stupid as stupid does, Forrest...

You call me an idiot and you call me stupid and whatever, but seeing as you obviously can't read my posts (ie. 2nd paragraph of the results post, where I say it is the odds offered that make me call) and you will probably not read Oz's let me put it simply:

I was beat on the turn, but could win on the river if I hit a boat or quads!

Clear? The odds are there without implied odds and we get villains stack if I hit a lot of the time. Even a four splits.

And ''check down the river?''. What the hell are you on about? Having found out I am beat and not hit the river you want me to bet again?? This contradicts your whole point of us knowing we are behind!

The reason I posted in the 'Hand Analysis' thread was because I thought I played it wrong and was looking for helpful but critical opinions. I mostly got them, and agree that maybe the move and probably the reasoning is flawed.

Yes, stupid is as stupid does, as your post proves.
 
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p0K35

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You call me an idiot and you call me stupid and whatever,...

I don't see where I called or texted that anywhere, must be an 'Implied' thing, jobber, whatever...

Your original post, compared with 'where we are at' not is roflmao, like.

You protest way too much about playing like you know what you are doing. Examples:

Clueless about the etiquette to 'check it down', and feeble reasons to ignore, etiquette. Clear?

When you make a bet to 'find out where you are at', and get reraised, you blow thru the STOP sign, and CALL, with dribble about implied odds to hit, what your 4 outs? Knowing you are beat with implied odds????

I guess the reason you make a 'find out where we are at' bet is to call a reraise, and check it down, when you miss. Right?

We clear yet? crystal, like? Because you taint reading my posts, relevant to the info provided.

I'd like an answer to the 'find out where we at bet', that calls the reraise, brilliant! oops, BRILLIANT

you post this crap, not me, get over the pms, or whatever...

sorry, to the rest of you, just trolling folks.
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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When you make a bet to 'find out where you are at', and get reraised, you blow thru the STOP sign, and CALL, with dribble about implied odds to hit, what your 4 outs? Knowing you are beat with implied odds????

I don't even know where to start with the rest of the post, but the above is clearly wrong.

We don't need implied odds on the turn, because the pot alone is offering us good enough odds. Even if you take the 1125 in the main pot out of the equation and just work on the side pot. The math doesn't lie.
 
Dwilius

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The villain couldn't fold a hand that beats top set so there is no harm in betting. That said I'd check, try to fill up. This as a value bet is unlikely. Even though i'm showing weakness he's not going to try to steal a 475 side pot if he could be beat by the all in (that would be the breach of ettiquette) and if you decide to call a river bet it won't be more than you spent on the turn.
 
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the_men222

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my move here was ... bet almost the pot (250) see want happen ....maybe a player have 4 for the straigt ..before the river bet like 400 jus for the other player think you realy have the 4 ....you have a great hand too
 
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