Bad fold?

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sta123

Rock Star
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Feb 4, 2008
Total posts
124
full tilt poker Game #6461716908: Midnight Madness! (48438370), Table 73 - 800/1600 Ante 200 - No Limit Hold'em - 3:11:57 ET - 2008/05/18
Seat 2: Czarnuski (150,942), is sitting out
Seat 3: 62 wtf (31,450)
Seat 4: sousastab777 (44,633)
Seat 5: pipercub0515 (17,240)
Seat 6: enviouspoker321 (81,378)
Seat 7: spillage (14,678)
Seat 8: knicoboker (75,891)
Seat 9: demente7 (29,347)
Czarnuski antes 200
62 wtf antes 200
sousastab777 antes 200
pipercub0515 antes 200
enviouspoker321 antes 200
spillage antes 200
knicoboker antes 200
demente7 antes 200
enviouspoker321 posts the small blind of 800
spillage posts the big blind of 1,600
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to enviouspoker321 [Qs Ac]
knicoboker folds
demente7 has 15 seconds left to act
demente7 raises to 4,800
Czarnuski folds
62 wtf has 15 seconds left to act
62 wtf folds
sousastab777 folds
pipercub0515 folds
enviouspoker321 has 15 seconds left to act
enviouspoker321 calls 4,000
spillage has 15 seconds left to act
spillage raises to 14,478, and is all in
demente7 raises to 29,147, and is all in
enviouspoker321 folds
demente7 shows [Td Ad]
spillage shows [6h 7c]
Uncalled bet of 14,669 returned to demente7
*** FLOP *** [Jd 5d 7d]
*** TURN *** [Jd 5d 7d] [Ah]
*** RIVER *** [Jd 5d 7d Ah] [Qh]
demente7 shows a flush, Ace high
spillage shows a pair of Sevens
demente7 wins the pot (35,356) with a flush, Ace high
spillage stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 35,356 | Rake 0
Board: [Jd 5d 7d Ah Qh]
Seat 2: Czarnuski folded before the Flop
Seat 3: 62 wtf folded before the Flop
Seat 4: sousastab777 folded before the Flop
Seat 5: pipercub0515 (button) folded before the Flop
Seat 6: enviouspoker321 (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 7: spillage (big blind) showed [6h 7c] and lost with a pair of Sevens
Seat 8: knicoboker folded before the Flop
Seat 9: demente7 showed [Td Ad] and won (35,356) with a flush, Ace high

I would of lost the hand anyway but was this a bad fold?
 
C

custo80

Visionary
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Dec 17, 2007
Total posts
884
Not at all, I agree with your play. It's always hard to say without knowing how the games been going, who's on tilt, what happened last hand etc. But at face value, u were looking at calling 2 re-raises after another raise pre-flop. I wouldn't like my AQ off after 3 pre-flops raises either. I do disagree with the other 2 players though! 1 guy over the top with 67 and the other calling with AT.

Good discipline mate, that's what makes long term winners you should feel good about ur decision. :)
 
F

feitr

Legend
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Feb 8, 2008
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1,570
lol AQo in a 3 way all in is a terrible terrible hand. Unless you already have alot invested it is best to only call in a situation like this with QQ+ and maybe AKs if you have alot left behind. So no it wasn't a bad fold at all.
 
M

mjd5228

Rising Star
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Dec 15, 2007
Total posts
19
yea that is a bad fold. u should hav the confidence to push all in there an he might not even call..
 
S

sta123

Rock Star
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Feb 4, 2008
Total posts
124
Huh? Did you read the HH? I called the raise from the UTG and the BB moved all-in and the UTG raiser pushed all-in as well.
 
B

Bentheman87

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Sep 6, 2007
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794
You guys don't seem to understand quite what was going on in this hand. The first raiser's M was about 7, the BB's M was 3.5, and TC's M was 20. So TC himself isn't under much pressure to make any moves or gamble, but he has to know that the other two players in the pot are under pressure from the blinds. TC should have 3-bet preflop, since UTG's M is 7 his range is now wider for opening, not only AK and AA-10 10. And when BB went all in, this didn't necessarily mean anything, his M was 3.5 so he was about to be killed by the blinds. Demente played the hand perfectly IMO and read the situation good. TC just called and didn't raise, then BB went all in with an M of 3.5, so another raise to chase out TC makes sense.
 
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feitr

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Ben you have to be very careful with 3 betting with blinds this high. If you 3 bet demente then you commit him/her so you basically might as well shove. So if you want to 3 bet this preflop you better be willing to commit 30k of your 80k stack with AQo. Now this is certainly a possibility since sta123 had position preflop, but it is risky seeing as demente is pretty deep. As played, i don't think you want to call the shove because over 1/3 of your stack in a 3 way all in with AQo is probably not what you want to be doing in this situation. As it turns out it would have been an alright call...he'd have been 40% to take the entire pot but you have the side pot dominated which would give you back what you put in.
 
theskillzdatklls

theskillzdatklls

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i think you played this perfectly. folding AQo in that situation shows discipline. with your M you absolutely should wait around for a better situation. i was in this exact situation yesterday with AJs, called a 3bet, all-in'rs, and boy was I saved, 66, JJ, AK came down, I would have been SCREWED! In multi-way pots AQ/Aj/AT, 99- become second best hands way too often. (even though you had the best hand going into it)

good job.
 
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Bentheman87

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"Ben you have to be very careful with 3 betting with blinds this high. If you 3 bet demente then you commit him/her so you basically might as well shove. So if you want to 3 bet this preflop you better be willing to commit 30k of your 80k stack with AQo. Now this is certainly a possibility since sta123 had position preflop, but it is risky seeing as demente is pretty deep. As played, i don't think you want to call the shove because over 1/3 of your stack in a 3 way all in with AQo is probably not what you want to be doing in this situation. As it turns out it would have been an alright call...he'd have been 40% to take the entire pot but you have the side pot dominated which would give you back what you put in."

Yea true, if we three bet to triple his bet and he just calls, he'll be pot comitted going to the flop. But he could still fold and have an M of 6, so he might get away from it preflop. And you said demente is pretty deep, that's not true at all, an M of 7 is not deep, Ms of 20+ are deep. I think the guy with 6 7 played it by far the worst though, shoving in for a bluff when he has no fold equity and will always be called by at least one player. Anyway, as played, it was a good fold preflop by TC.
 
robwhufc

robwhufc

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Ben you have to be very careful with 3 betting with blinds this high. If you 3 bet demente then you commit him/her so you basically might as well shove. So if you want to 3 bet this preflop you better be willing to commit 30k of your 80k stack with AQo. Now this is certainly a possibility since sta123 had position preflop, but it is risky seeing as demente is pretty deep. As played, i don't think you want to call the shove because over 1/3 of your stack in a 3 way all in with AQo is probably not what you want to be doing in this situation. As it turns out it would have been an alright call...he'd have been 40% to take the entire pot but you have the side pot dominated which would give you back what you put in.

Maybe, but my first thoughts were the same as Ben's, dead money in the pot and AQ is a big hand at this stage. Those hands that are worth an early position raise in the final stages (A 10 here, i know it's cheating a bit knowing what he's got, but personally i'd be stealing at least once per round, from all positions here) don't look quite so big when you are reraised and your tourney life is on the line. OP has big stack (bigger stack is sat out) - use it.

The call firstly gave the BB irresistable odds to complete, and secondly you let an opponent take the initiative right away from you.

As for gambling 1/3rd of your stack, it would only take a couple of blind steals to get most of that back, and there's nothing wrong with getting caught out every now and then.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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This is one of those hands where nothing is instinctively 'right'.

- Folding preflop seems overly tight - we have position on the preflop raiser and have a hand that competes reasonably well with his range.

- Calling preflop leaves us open to a squeeze play (as actually happened of course).

- Reraising preflop would essentially involve committing to playing for stacks, and invariably anyhting villain plays with to a reraise will either be flipping with or will have AQ beaten.

I actually most likely fold this preflop as we have a large stack and will have better spots available to us to pick up chips than with a slightly better than marginal hand against an unknown EP raiser. It seems terribly nitty though.
 
F

feitr

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@ Ben

Deep in the sense of he covers alot of hero's stack. You rarely see M's of 20+ late in an MTT because the blinds/antes are just so large. So, sure, he isn't deep "by the book" but he is deep enough that losing the pot takes out a big chuck of the hero's stack. My point was that if the largest stack to be all in was only about 15-20k this is probably an auto call.
 
Chiefer

Chiefer

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You guys don't seem to understand quite what was going on in this hand. The first raiser's M was about 7, the BB's M was 3.5, and TC's M was 20. So TC himself isn't under much pressure to make any moves or gamble, but he has to know that the other two players in the pot are under pressure from the blinds. TC should have 3-bet preflop, since UTG's M is 7 his range is now wider for opening, not only AK and AA-10 10. And when BB went all in, this didn't necessarily mean anything, his M was 3.5 so he was about to be killed by the blinds. Demente played the hand perfectly IMO and read the situation good. TC just called and didn't raise, then BB went all in with an M of 3.5, so another raise to chase out TC makes sense.

M M M M M M M M M M M M M, the fold was a good play. there is more to poker then M!
 
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