Augh...AA vs full table.

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ph_il

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Deep down, I think I made a good fold, but geez, seeing the hand that won made me puke up a bit. Is there anything I couldve done differently? Was my PFR too small? I was really thinking about shoving here PF-wish I did.

pokerstars Game #15642680867: Tournament #79023877, $1.00+$0.10 Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2008/02/29 - 18:07:52 (ET)
Table '79023877 17' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: skiff67 (1320 in chips)
Seat 2: jodleif (1020 in chips)
Seat 3: Péribonkois (1400 in chips)
Seat 4: Jakespa1 (990 in chips)
Seat 5: woodyman4916 (1630 in chips)
Seat 6: ClwKing (430 in chips)
Seat 7: julioctelles (3050 in chips)
Seat 8: Bent Bam (2190 in chips)
Seat 9: TRM_SHRiMP (1470 in chips)
skiff67: posts small blind 10
jodleif: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TRM_SHRiMP [Ah Ac]
Péribonkois: calls 20
Jakespa1: calls 20
woodyman4916: folds
ClwKing: calls 20
julioctelles: calls 20
Bent Bam: calls 20
TRM_SHRiMP: raises 200 to 220
Péribonkois said, "thats verry long"
skiff67: calls 210
jodleif: calls 200
Péribonkois: calls 200
Jakespa1: calls 200
TRM_SHRiMP said, "omg."
ClwKing: calls 200
julioctelles: folds
Bent Bam: calls 200
*** FLOP *** [5c 9c 5s]
skiff67: checks
jodleif: checks
Péribonkois: checks
Jakespa1: bets 300
ClwKing: calls 210 and is all-in
Bent Bam: calls 300
TRM_SHRiMP: folds
skiff67: folds
jodleif: folds
Péribonkois: calls 300
*** TURN *** [5c 9c 5s] [Qh]
Péribonkois: checks
Jakespa1: checks
Bent Bam: checks
*** RIVER *** [5c 9c 5s Qh] [4h]
Péribonkois: checks
Jakespa1: bets 470 and is all-in
Bent Bam: calls 470
Péribonkois: calls 470
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Jakespa1: shows [8s Qd] (two pair, Queens and Fives)
Bent Bam: mucks hand
Péribonkois: mucks hand
Jakespa1 collected 1680 from side pot
ClwKing: mucks hand
Jakespa1 collected 2400 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 4080 Main pot 2400. Side pot 1680. | Rake 0
Board [5c 9c 5s Qh 4h]
Seat 1: skiff67 (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 2: jodleif (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 3: Péribonkois mucked [7c 7s]
Seat 4: Jakespa1 showed [8s Qd] and won (4080) with two pair, Queens and Fives
Seat 5: woodyman4916 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: ClwKing mucked [Kd 6c]
Seat 7: julioctelles folded before Flop
Seat 8: Bent Bam mucked [Ad 9d]
Seat 9: TRM_SHRiMP (button) folded on the Flop
 
pantin007

pantin007

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well pushing preflop would not be a very profitable play, ur preflop raise is pretty large but it isnt too bad at this level, i just dont understand why u folded on the flop, pot odds were just too good to fold there plus u have an extremely strong hand in that situation and were probably ahead in the hand
 
Monoxide

Monoxide

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yeah hmmm why would you raise 200 then fold to a 300 on bet on a awesome board like that?
 
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ph_il

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well pushing preflop would not be a very profitable play, ur preflop raise is pretty large but it isnt too bad at this level, i just dont understand why u folded on the flop, pot odds were just too good to fold there plus u have an extremely strong hand in that situation and were probably ahead in the hand
pot odds were good for me to call on the flop, but I was worried about holding a 5. Someone could've easily called with 45, 56, or possibly pair of 9s-I might expect a reraise here, though. Im not sure. Its still early, 6th hand, so I dont have any reads. Someone could easily be playing a loose K5s for all I know. I dont want to be chasing against a made hand or a hand that has me dominated. Its a situation where I dont know if Im ahead or if Im behind. I didnt think I could just call here because I wouldnt know where I was on the turn. And what would I do if someone pushed on the turn? So, it was either fold or raise. If I raise, Im only being called with a hand that beats me, a smaller pair, or a draw. Against 3 or 4 players, I would make the call, but with that many people in PF, its just so easy for something to have hand that could beat me.

I dont know...Im having mixed feelings about it. I feel like it was an OK play-Im probably beat, I can just fold and live to play another hand. And then its-Im such an idiot. LOL.
 
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dapotboss

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Tough place to be

I would def agree that that specific call can be a tough one to make, but with such a large raise pre flop the raise made on the flop was miniscule compared to the pot maybe 1/5 or so i dont remember but the point is it was too little to be anything but a test bet. Furthermore people especially in these low buy in tourneys hardly ever play hands straight up anybody with a 5 is def going to slow play at that point. I think you made a safe fold but next time live a little dangerously you might see that it pays off.
 
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McCoolchess

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with 3 callers already and players to act after you, a larger bet (maybe around 300-350) would push out a few players, because it's dangerous playing against too many players with Aces. Also, why you folded on the flop is weird, in this situation many players wouldn't overbet if they flopped 3 of a kind, if they knew a pre-flop raiser is on the button.
 
SeanyJ

SeanyJ

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That is way too tight of a fold on the flop. That is a great flop for you, what are the chances that someone is going to call with a 5 in their hand? I would've re raised and insta-called a shove from anyone. I really don't like this fold at all.
 
Melkor

Melkor

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Pots odds importance in terms of calling is irrelevent here as hero is not calling this on the flop, the action is more than sufficient to shove and be totally confident of one caller if not more and the pot is big enough to take down right now and be very happy, it is a clear shove or fold position. What we have to look at is whether we think we are ahead enough of the time to justify shoving into a lot of players.

Pot odds do come into play when considering whether to shove. With the pot as it stands philthy is already getting 2.1:1 on a shove and implied odds are massive as it is almost guranteed one player will take the big pot odds on offer to them. I am not a good mathematical brain in poker yet but I think it is correct in saying that philthy is not as big an underdog as the odds, or at the very least the implied odds, are offering, so maybe a shove is the correct play.

The amount of villains makes me want to think we must be behind but looking again, three have checked, one is all-in and was pretty much pot commited and another has only called the raise. While the three checkers could be trapping, skiff67 has a stack of 1100 and with a massive pot would probably shove if he had a five, and jodleif and Peribonkis are in very similar situations with a little less and a little more chips left respectively, but in the same boat. So that reduces the amount of strong villains significently.

Which leaves me to think that a shove would have been the right play in this spot, however, being honest, my gut instinct against the amount of villains was to fold and there is no way I could have worked out the above in enough time so I do not think you made a poor play. Just a tricky situation.

And you would have lost the hand anyway, so great fold.;) :D
 
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52poutanes

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the reason why you dont fold here is because you getting too good a pot odds....and the only reason
 
NineLions

NineLions

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Phil, I played a bunch of these on FT as kind of a project. Actually, they were turbos, but I can understand where you're coming from about folding and staying alive.

But the players are just too bad to fold this. People are going to bet/raise/shove this flop with that size pot with gut shot draws, even combo runner-runner draws.
 
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ph_il

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Its a situation where Im either ahead or behind. With a flop like that and that many players, its really hard to tell where I am at. If I were to raise, I would have to push my hand Im only being called by a hand that beats me or at best, a smaller pair or a draw. I felt it was too early in the tournament to put my entire stack at risk here.

I either made a great fold or I was an idiot. Obviously, it was the latter.
 
NineLions

NineLions

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Its a situation where Im either ahead or behind. With a flop like that and that many players, its really hard to tell where I am at. If I were to raise, I would have to push my hand Im only being called by a hand that beats me or at best, a smaller pair or a draw. I felt it was too early in the tournament to put my entire stack at risk here.

I either made a great fold or I was an idiot. Obviously, it was the latter.

It's quite possible that you are behind, but just 'cause of the level of players it's more likely than usual that you're ahead.

But, looking at it the other way, you can probably out play them later if you survive.
 
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