bob_tiger
Legend
Silver Level
lol...first of all those numbers are simple math and odds of you winning and if you are saying you want to be in behind and hope to get lucky, you will never be a winning player.
lol...first of all those numbers are simple math and odds of you winning and if you are saying you want to be in behind and hope to get lucky, you will never be a winning player.
widowmaker89
Visionary
Silver Level
I think it is a mistake to limit his range to 77+ AJs+. he limped in and wanted to see a flop, he got raise, still wants to see it, would be calling off a third of his stack so why not push it. He is the low stack, and while he has some chips to play with it is a turbo and that may not be the case shortly. Play on these tables isnt always the greatest either, so maybe he wants to make a play that he is in a coin toss with and maybe get a fold out of you. He could be playing any pair here as well as a KQ QJs.
How many times have you had a premium hand here and call to see 55 or QJs? I know I have a lot so I do not know how you can say a limp all in means the range you put him in.
Since this is posted this is probably the case, but i dont see AA or KK here, if someone wants to limp with that hand I feel they would continue the slow play. AK i would be worried about but i think a pocket pair is the most likely here.
As for the pot odds, yes it is directly applicable to cash game but it is still very relevent. I dont see how you saay big blinds they are mroe relevant? They give much better pot odds but the concept is still the same.
This is a borderline call either way, I wouldnt fault someone for either but waiting in a turbo with 3 minute intervals, your chances are going to be limited. You will already be the short stack and most likely end up putting yourself in a position that will be more unfavorable than this.
How many times have you had a premium hand here and call to see 55 or QJs? I know I have a lot so I do not know how you can say a limp all in means the range you put him in.
Since this is posted this is probably the case, but i dont see AA or KK here, if someone wants to limp with that hand I feel they would continue the slow play. AK i would be worried about but i think a pocket pair is the most likely here.
As for the pot odds, yes it is directly applicable to cash game but it is still very relevent. I dont see how you saay big blinds they are mroe relevant? They give much better pot odds but the concept is still the same.
This is a borderline call either way, I wouldnt fault someone for either but waiting in a turbo with 3 minute intervals, your chances are going to be limited. You will already be the short stack and most likely end up putting yourself in a position that will be more unfavorable than this.
NineLions
Advanced beginner
Silver Level
fwiw, I think some people are putting too much weight on the fact that this is a turbo, like most of the people playing them.
I wouldn't fault a call too much here because AQ is a decent hand (though dominated by AK, which is a good candidate for his holding), but not because it's a turbo. In my experience at these kinda levels the key is to survive until the blinds hit 50/100 with at least 10BBs. Once the blinds reach that level the play tightens up considerably (although some will still be trying to limp) and you basically bash your way through with raises and shoves. Until then, picking up chips isn't nearly as important as having enough chips to attack with when you arrive at that point.
I wouldn't fault a call too much here because AQ is a decent hand (though dominated by AK, which is a good candidate for his holding), but not because it's a turbo. In my experience at these kinda levels the key is to survive until the blinds hit 50/100 with at least 10BBs. Once the blinds reach that level the play tightens up considerably (although some will still be trying to limp) and you basically bash your way through with raises and shoves. Until then, picking up chips isn't nearly as important as having enough chips to attack with when you arrive at that point.
F
feitr
Legend
Silver Level
Well you'd have to be an idiot to limp shove with JQs. But it is 1$ SnGs so ofc that is a possibility.
My point is simply that vs most ranges you are <50%. The range really doesn't matter that much. Unless you start including shit like QTo, you are probably <50% here. vs a loose range of 55+, ATs+, KJs+ you are still 46.5% dog. It's the fact that in most cases you would expect a mid pp to be turned over (~55:45 dog), that makes this a fold imo.
So again, if you were deep stacked then yes you call this. You get pot odds and if you have villain covered by enough you are fine if you lose. But playing basically for stacks, when the blinds are small, i don't understand why you want to call his shove hoping like hell he is AJ or KQ, because nothing else is that realistic and has us ahead.
You need some range like 55+,A8s+,KJs+,KQo,ATo+ for hero to be even 53%, which is still putting your tournament completely on a coin flip.
M
marble
Rock Star
Silver Level
you don't have to be favorite to make a good call. feitr, if the villain flashed you 99 and you fold...then you just made a mistake imo. maybe you can find a better spot, that makes you a hell of a good player. i ain't that good so i maybe the wrong guy to take advice from.
daxter70
Visionary
Silver Level
F
feitr
Legend
Silver Level
Sorry sir but i don't understand your logic. I fail to see how risking everything when you have a no-skill 45% chance to win a pot or bust the tourn is a good decision. Besides, even if that is the way that you like to play then being the one to shove first is far better, because 1. you gain fold equity and 2. a "random" hand is much more likely to be worse than a check shoved hand .
I personally HATE playing for stacks in SnGs (ofc sometimes you have to) when there is much less luck involved if you actually see a flop.
I personally HATE playing for stacks in SnGs (ofc sometimes you have to) when there is much less luck involved if you actually see a flop.
OzExorcist
Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Erm... I didn't say the villain was tight aggressive. If anything I'd say he was playing loose-passive, but as you point out, we don't really have enough hands for a solid read. I did said that I was playing tight aggressive, but we can't rely on the villain having noticed that.
Anywho, results (such as they are): I folded.
There were a couple of things that lead me to do it:
- First and foremost, the line is just too weird for anything I'm ahead of. It just screamed "Standard low-stakes player with a big pair trap"
- If I call and lose, I'm crippled. If I fold, I've still got more than enough chips to work with
- The move was out of line with anything this player had done before, especially when I'd announced some strength.
NineLions also has a point: the fact that this is a turbo shouldn't be anywhere near as big a factor as people seem to think it is, especially if you conserve chips and stay out of trouble early. Which is another reason I don't really want to take a coinflip (or worse) here. I find the rising blinds are only really a problem if you get involved in too many pots early and run your stack down in the first few levels.
Side note - if anyone wants to see a scary graph, sharkscope a player called TheEnd79: he plays a lot of turbos at the $5 and under level (I've played him in $2 games once or twice, and observed a few more of his games) and destroys them using basically the same strategy NineLions has highlighted: fold everything but big edges early, then start weighing in when the field gets down to four or five players.
Rob: yeah, 25% rake is high, and I'll be only too happy to move away from these games when I'm properly rolled for them. It's one of the reasons I'm taking a shot at a $2 game (with a somewhat more reasonable 12.5% rake) whenever I win one of these. In the meantime though, they're proving relatively easy to beat and I'm still making a profit from them. The ROI figures I quoted earlier include rake, FWIW.
Anyway, apologies for the long post, and by all means continue the discussion - looks like it's of a lot more interest than I originally thought!
DetroitJimmy
Legend
Silver Level
You are prolly right about this strategy in a low limit turbo.I have been playing $24 and $36 turbo's at the same site and they're a whole different animal.Almost everyone who is anyone in these already has a 2000-3000 chip stack by the time the blinds get up to 50/100.
You're right about this strategy in a small stakes turbo though.If you play that way in a bigger one though you will be a break even or maybe slightly profitable player.
NineLions
Advanced beginner
Silver Level
The way Tilt works, someone who can play well could really do well at mid-level buyins because Tilt offers a lot of satellites into the bigger ones. It may not have cost them much to get there, but it pays the winners the same.
I played a $75 one of these because I had a token that I had to use from a points freeroll win and I suspect some of my competition got there the same way. Not all great play. I saw one of the players who had decent Sharkscope stats go out in a blind battle, shoving his AT over the SB raise fairly early on. The SB had TT which held up to eliminate the player with the decent stats.
NineLions
Advanced beginner
Silver Level
This is what I've found too. If you haven't much of a bankroll on Tilt, the ease of winning these more than covers the rake.
Part of the ease may be due to the fact that the cash games start at 0.05/0.10, so beginners think that they should play these instead of cash games.
M
marble
Rock Star
Silver Level
one hour from now you'll get into another coinflip and win. then you'll think to yourself, "hmmmm.....when i lose these flips i lose $1 but when i win i get $1.5, sounds like a good deal to me"
-m
N
nudist30
Enthusiast
Silver Level
To fold
Yeah I would probably fold in this instance because the way the players at FTP are about 80% donks well this guy probably is a donk and he found himself the "golden" hand for him to push with either AA or KK or QQ. So you probably are a slight dog. If you feel frisky go for it. But the smart money is on folding this hand. Just my opinion.
Yeah I would probably fold in this instance because the way the players at FTP are about 80% donks well this guy probably is a donk and he found himself the "golden" hand for him to push with either AA or KK or QQ. So you probably are a slight dog. If you feel frisky go for it. But the smart money is on folding this hand. Just my opinion.
OzExorcist
Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Posted the result on the previous page but I think it got kinda lost - I folded.
I stacked the villain later and then cashed though.
ItsMe
Rock Star
Silver Level
Seen this sort of play too often to be convinced. Can't put him on big pairs or he should be raising to eliminate competition so preflop his range could be anything from ace-rag to sc to small pps.
His response to your bet indicates it's small pps. I would guess 33 up to 88. My banker would be 44.
So you are behind but not by much. As a rule of thumb here I would not call with anything less than 99.
Even with AK you can just put fuel on the fire by re-raising especially against monkeys. They don't tend to fold and they tend to at least call the re-raise. So it is difficult and the Laws of Poker don't really apply.
So its a slightly unfavourable coin toss or wait for a better spot. If you think you are a good player then I think you fold and look to outplay the monkeys over a longer stretch.
His response to your bet indicates it's small pps. I would guess 33 up to 88. My banker would be 44.
So you are behind but not by much. As a rule of thumb here I would not call with anything less than 99.
Even with AK you can just put fuel on the fire by re-raising especially against monkeys. They don't tend to fold and they tend to at least call the re-raise. So it is difficult and the Laws of Poker don't really apply.
So its a slightly unfavourable coin toss or wait for a better spot. If you think you are a good player then I think you fold and look to outplay the monkeys over a longer stretch.