Another danger of Big Slick

NineLions

NineLions

Advanced beginner
At the final table of a 27 seat play money tourney. I can usually get to the final table just by being patient and playing only playable hands, but this time I hit a couple of big hands along the way so I'm sitting 3rd highest chip count even after losing a couple at the final table.

I still get scared when I get big pocket hands; afraid that I'm not going to win or something, so I used to automatically go all-in to avoid having to play. Now, at least, when I don't have position I raise whatever amount I think will get 1-2 callers, then go all-in after the flop thinking they will be more committed after calling pre-flop.


pokerstars Game #6434529844: Tournament #32656006, 2000+110 Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (200/400) - 2006/09/27 - 00:45:51 (ET)
Table '32656006 3' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: cadman95682 (8530 in chips)
Seat 2: AAroKKeTT (3425 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 5: crafttypat (2475 in chips)
Seat 6: creative_47_ (2460 in chips)
Seat 7: NineLions (6210 in chips)
Seat 8: bkosh (11785 in chips)
Seat 9: nechole (5615 in chips)
cadman95682: posts the ante 25
AAroKKeTT: posts the ante 25
crafttypat: posts the ante 25
creative_47_: posts the ante 25
NineLions: posts the ante 25
bkosh: posts the ante 25
nechole: posts the ante 25
cadman95682: posts small blind 200
AAroKKeTT: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to NineLions [Ah Kh]
 
NineLions

NineLions

Advanced beginner
crafttypat: calls 400
creative_47_: folds
NineLions: raises 400 to 800
bkosh: folds
nechole: folds
cadman95682: calls 600
AAroKKeTT: folds
crafttypat: raises 1650 to 2450 and is all-in
NineLions: calls 1650
cadman95682: calls 1650


I wanted 1-2 callers, so I only bet 800 which seemed to work. One of the shortstacks who previously just called 400 goes all-in. This may or may not mean that he has a really good pocket as I know short stacks will gamble with so-so all-ins, trying to double up. The fact that he didn't raise in his first chance supports this theory, but maybe not, given the way people play at these tables. The small blind calls both of us.
 
NineLions

NineLions

Advanced beginner
*** FLOP *** [7c 4c 8d]
cadman95682: checks
NineLions: bets 3735 and is all-in
cadman95682: calls 3735
*** TURN *** [7c 4c 8d] [8s]
*** RIVER *** [7c 4c 8d 8s] [7h]

A not too exciting flop, so I go all-in thinking I probably have the best hand at the moment.


This is, I think, where I made a mistake. Having a decent stack, I should have played the hand out, waiting to see if I paired anything, feeling the other guy out, maybe betting 1,000 each time. Since the cards are all middle-low, there's a good chance either he has face cards or another pair that missed getting a set on the board. If he does hit a set, or full house in this case since two pairs came on the table, I could fold, or at least slow down my betting.
 
NineLions

NineLions

Advanced beginner
I just re-read my previous post; maybe not bet 1,000, but 400 or 800.

Anyway, the results.


*** SHOW DOWN ***
cadman95682: shows [Qd Qc] (two pair, Queens and Eights)
NineLions: shows [Ah Kh] (two pair, Eights and Sevens)
NineLions said, "gg"
cadman95682 collected 7470 from side pot
crafttypat: shows [Ad Ks] (two pair, Eights and Sevens)
creative_47_ said, "nh"
cadman95682 collected 7925 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 15395 Main pot 7925. Side pot 7470. | Rake 0
Board [7c 4c 8d 8s 7h]
Seat 1: cadman95682 (small blind) showed [Qd Qc] and won (15395) with two pair, Queens and Eights
Seat 2: AAroKKeTT (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: crafttypat showed [Ad Ks] and lost with two pair, Eights and Sevens
Seat 6: creative_47_ folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: NineLions showed [Ah Kh] and lost with two pair, Eights and Sevens
Seat 8: bkosh folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: nechole (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)



The short stack caller had AK as well. And here's the danger I realized post-mortem. With more than one caller in an all-in, someone else might have Big Slick as well, and if so, we've got the cards the other needs, cutting down our outs to 4 (if neither of us are suited). If that's the case, we're both in trouble against any pocket pairs, or even QJ which has 6 outs without even being suited.

If there's only 1 caller you don't have to worry as then you'll just split the pot.

In the future, I might only go all-in if I paired the A or K or had at least a flush draw, at least when I have a decent stack like in this instance. Not just so I can avoid this particular situation again, which is pretty rare, but because it's generally dangerous to play AK hard against more than one caller.


Comments?
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

Legend
Why go all-in on the flop? You have nothing to gain from the side-pot and everything to lose. Your hand is only Ace-high. The best thing to do would be to check the hand down, and that way you are more likely to eliminate the other player. If your opponent has AK he will probably do the same. If he bets, your are probably beaten. Overplaying AK can be a big leak in your game.
 
withawedge

withawedge

Visionary
Agree with Bombjack here.

After the Flop you have only Ace High. If you can get away with checking then do it.

As soon as a bet is made at you get out of there pronto.

AK looks the biz but does not always deliver

:)
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
My advice: Raise more preflop (see:https://www.cardschat.com/showthread.php?t=71694), and then take it from there. Should your opponents have a hand worth playing, they'll probably push (considering their stack sizes), and you can decide whether or not the odds are in your favour when that happens. With the stack sizes, there really shouldn't be much post-flop play considering how high the blinds are.

I actually don't mind a push PF saying as how you really don't have much in relation to the blinds, and a healthy raise would nearly commit you anyways.
 
NineLions

NineLions

Advanced beginner
My advice: Raise more preflop (see:https://www.cardschat.com/showthread.php?t=71694), and then take it from there. Should your opponents have a hand worth playing, they'll probably push (considering their stack sizes), and you can decide whether or not the odds are in your favour when that happens. With the stack sizes, there really shouldn't be much post-flop play considering how high the blinds are.

I actually don't mind a push PF saying as how you really don't have much in relation to the blinds, and a healthy raise would nearly commit you anyways.

I would have raised more pre-flop, but I was hoping to get 1-2 callers at this table. My read on the table was that if I raised more I might lose all callers.

In this instance, I doubt I would have lost the 2 that called, given the hands they held, so a higher pre-flop raise might have had the same result, except, it might have warned me that the SB had a top hand. The other hand would still have gone all-in.

So, on this table, more pre-flop would have given me more information to be safer, but might have lost all the callers if the potential callers didn't have quite such good hands as they did in this case.
 
NineLions

NineLions

Advanced beginner
Agree with Bombjack here.

After the Flop you have only Ace High. If you can get away with checking then do it.

As soon as a bet is made at you get out of there pronto.

AK looks the biz but does not always deliver

:)

So check, and in this case we're assuming/hoping the QQ would bet, which assumes his read is that I missed the flop, assuming I'm not slowplaying or planning to check raise?

At this point both of us have called the pre-flop all-in, so I know he has something. Although on these tables you can never be sure what, and I hadn't played against him to know he's not one of these guys who call all-ins with QT offsuit.

But since we both called the preflop all-in, it's likely we both missed the flop, should I not bet a significant amount (say 800) to see if he has a high pocket pair? Or do that on the turn if he also checks on the flop?
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
I would have raised more pre-flop, but I was hoping to get 1-2 callers at this table. My read on the table was that if I raised more I might lose all callers.

That's fine. You don't necessarily want callers with AK; it's not that strong of a hand to want action. 3-5BBs is the standard raise, and it should definitely do it's job in either isolating, or just plain winning the blinds. You shouldn't be disappointed if you only win the blinds with AK or AQ.

What happens when you minraise PF, only to get 3 people call you, and the flop comes 59T? You've just waisted 2 BBs, and can't call any bets on the flop here. Raise more to isolate, and to get good value from your hand.
 
BillyTheBull

BillyTheBull

Rock Star
Most of the time I hate playing AK, and no way would I ever go all-in PF with it unless the blinds were snappin' at my feet in a tourney. . . usually I'll try to see the flop as cheap as possible with this hand and then re-evaluate whether or not I have a good hand. Just my humble opinion, though. . . .

A small raise PF like you made, especially from a big-stack position, would have been ok, but when the other guy re-raised all-in, you should have been out of there, I think.
 
NineLions

NineLions

Advanced beginner
Short stacks going all-in can be a crap shoot though. They're trying to double up before the blinds eat them, so they can be going all-in with marginally good hands.

Not that I shouldn't have done so, but with a larger preflop bet, the same two would probably have been in, and the short stack all-in. I think calling the short stack was okay, but going all-in on the flop was jumping the gun.
 
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