My "American style" play offends the Dutch

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viking999

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This call set some Dutch railbirds off.

full tilt poker Game #6136072308: $11,500 Guarantee (46017174), Table 46 - 2500/5000 Ante 600 - No Limit Hold'em - 16:05:38 ET - 2008/04/22
Seat 1: tomslammer (119,147)
Seat 2: raysondk (214,160)
Seat 3: pirrotta (33,594)
Seat 4: carlor (33,810)
Seat 6: cognugi (25,695)
Seat 7: viking999 (113,357)
Seat 9: joosjet (125,160)
tomslammer antes 600
raysondk antes 600
pirrotta antes 600
carlor antes 600
cognugi antes 600
viking999 antes 600
joosjet antes 600
cognugi posts the small blind of 2,500
viking999 posts the big blind of 5,000
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to viking999 [Qc 8c]
joosjet folds
tomslammer folds
raysondk folds
pirrotta folds
carlor raises to 33,210, and is all in
cognugi folds
viking999 has 15 seconds left to act
viking999 has requested TIME
viking999 calls 28,210
carlor shows [Ac Jc]
viking999 shows [Qc 8c]
*** FLOP *** [Js 9c Tc]
joosjet: zeker wilde wel een call lol
*** TURN *** [Js 9c Tc] [3h]
*** RIVER *** [Js 9c Tc 3h] [7s]
carlor shows a pair of Jacks
viking999 shows a straight, Queen high
viking999 wins the pot (73,120) with a straight, Queen high
carlor stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 73,120 | Rake 0
Board: [Js 9c Tc 3h 7s]
Seat 1: tomslammer folded before the Flop
Seat 2: raysondk folded before the Flop
Seat 3: pirrotta folded before the Flop
Seat 4: carlor (button) showed [Ac Jc] and lost with a pair of Jacks
Seat 6: cognugi (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 7: viking999 (big blind) showed [Qc 8c] and won (73,120) with a straight, Queen high
Seat 9: joosjet folded before the Flop

This was well into the money, probably in the final 18 players out of 484. If I were the other guy, I'd be moving on the button there with any two cards. I have to call 28K to win 45K, so better than 3:2. I have plenty of chips, my hand is a bit above average, and I have enough pot odds to make this a straightforward call, no? Too risky? Are the Dutch on to something?
 
SeanyJ

SeanyJ

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It's not a terrible call, like you said he could have been doing that with any two cards. But 33,000 chips would put a pretty good dent in your stack..Personally I would have folded unless you had already seen him shove with questionable hands in the past.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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There are only two things I can't stand in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures... and the Dutch!
 
odinscott

odinscott

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You were in the BB, you had him covered 3x over, plus it was only like 25,000 more to call. That is the proper move, if the Dutch guys play like that, I gotta get into some of their games...
 
P

p0K35

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hey, whoa, easy here....

you made a good call, and dutchy did the right things, ok, poker...

let's not sling slurs around, like mayo on freedom fries, ok, let's get along...
 
V

viking999

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Actually, I don't think the guy I busted was Dutch. That's what made it even more annoying. They were railing someone else.

Let's say I had 22 instead. Is calling with that better or worse than calling with the Q8s? I'm thinking the 22 is a little bit better but close, but basically they're both roughly racing against a wide open range.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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I think this is a fold actually, especially if you have a good chance at stealing blinds and bullying the table in smaller pots.

You're getting 1.4:1 and only if he's opening his entire range do you have odds to call (you're only 1.2:1 against a %100 range).

And hey, don't knock the Dutch. Just let us dance around in our clogs smell our tulips and smoke our weed :(
 
zachvac

zachvac

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report them for violating the English-only rule imo :p
 
rwilson

rwilson

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Personally I would have folded preflop here too without question. Why bother racing when the blinds and antes are so high? Two or three well timed stabs at the blinds could net you as many chips as this move has, withouth having to risk 1/4 of your chips in one hit.
 
P

p0K35

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I don't think the guy I busted was Dutch.

Well, I wasn't sure... Just one thing, why I like the call, head-2-head, and last to act preflop. If you fold, gonna keep shorty around for the next hand to pull the same move on you SB. You did have to think about it...

Ok, another thing, they had you pretty much dominated preflop, but you flop a str and OESF, so only dead to 5 other clubs...
 
D

deathduck

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I think this was bad, but it would depend on the reads. You know what you would do, but at this point what has this guy been doing? Has he folded SB's to the BB recently and given up many BB's to raises? I would fold if he was playing tight because your not getting good odds. You get 1.4:1 and I would put him on 22-AA and A10o + and you only have 36% win equity vs that range.
 
S

soonerdel

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i think it was a great call... u had him well covered in chips plus his range could be any two cards..
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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I think it was a great call because you ran to the straight.


^^^^^^Totally results oriented.
 
aliengenius

aliengenius

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I have six words for you: zeker wilde wel een call lol

Anyway, you need to understand Skansky's 'gap concept' a little better: you have to have a much stronger hand to call than to push.

Try to live by a 'steal and be stolen from' rule, making sure you do more of your share of the former...
 
P

p0K35

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Skansky's

Who the heck is that? Is that the guy who has a 'dbls' wsop bracelet? First name 'David'?? Perhaps, you can go get the book, and see how to 'speel' his name properly, or not. Plus that guy is an idiot, and a good reason why not to read a book written by someone, who has done about nothing in the poker world.

Ok, maybe he did that allin crap, for the casino owner's daughter... lol

Back to the post:

Good call, no.
Bad call, no.
Dumb call, NO.
Gutsy/Ballsy call, methinks...
Lucky call, sure.
Insta Call, no, viking did go deep into the time bank.

Maybe the post should be, "is this a fold"? time bank...
 
Chiefer

Chiefer

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Who the heck is that? Is that the guy who has a 'dbls' wsop bracelet? First name 'David'?? Perhaps, you can go get the book, and see how to 'speel' his name properly, or not. Plus that guy is an idiot, and a good reason why not to read a book written by someone, who has done about nothing in the poker world.


AG is one of the smartest poker players on this site. you would do well to listen to him. check out his poker book library thread. i think he has it pretty much covered.

oh and it was a typo, it happens. get over it.
 
1nickthegreek

1nickthegreek

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I have six words for you: zeker wilde wel een call
For the people who dont know about alta vista babel fish ^^^^^ is

Babel Fish Translation
fish-right.gif
Help
In English:certain savage, however, call

Dutch to English
 
V

viking999

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I have six words for you: zeker wilde wel een call lol

Anyway, you need to understand Skansky's 'gap concept' a little better: you have to have a much stronger hand to call than to push.

Try to live by a 'steal and be stolen from' rule, making sure you do more of your share of the former...

If I could magically rearrange the game and put myself on the button and him in the BB, I'd have been all too happy to raise with this hand instead of call with it. But I only had two options. Call or fold. Fold is 0 EV. So IMO the real question is am I +EV at all? Am I +EV enough to make it worth the risk?

I'm pretty confident I was +EV versus the range. I think the range that deathduck posted is way too tight. Turns out his hand was in that range, but I can't sweat about results. I'd think the range would be all but the worst couple of hands. The uncoordinated low cards. He's got an M of about 3 and it folded to him on the button, so I think this is his ideal opportunity to do the first part of, as AG said, the whole "steal and be stolen from" thing. By the way, I count the pot odds as 1.6:1, not 1.4:1. Are you guys counting the 4200 in antes?

What I'm really wondering now is was it worth the risk? I don't consider 1/4 of my stack to be huge, but it's definitely worth thinking about. I think the real factor is that we're in the final two tables, so the money jumps are significant and they come every couple bustouts (if I had to guess, I would say there were 15 left here, so the next jump was at 12). You could really come close to putting a dollar amount on the tournament chips now. It seems like I might be risking at least $10 by calling here. Unlike in a cash game, if I bust I can't just buy back in. I could enter another tournament, but I can't enter a 500 player tournament with only 15 players left. No matter how many tournaments you play, there will only be a limited number of times you get very deep, so you can't just say that the luck will even out in the long run. It's just impossible to play enough tournaments for that to be true. So based on that, maybe I shouldn't be as ready to put chips at risk on a race.
 
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