AKo vs action; $4/180

ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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I've so far played two hands; one in which I took down a pot on the flop with a c-bet vs two opponents, and another where I stacked with set over set in a big pot.

Midnightca was the guy who I stacked in set over set, and he's pretty bad. Very loose and passive.

Zackattack went nuts early on, but has calmed down since. He's got TAG stats right now, but that doesn't mean anything. I think he could have several pairs here and AQ+.

TopDog is also a fish; very loose and passive and it looks to me with his limp-call like 9s or something like that.

Pokerstars Game (?) TOURNAMENT #65282485, $4.00+$0.40 HOLD'EM NO LIMIT - LEVEL III (25/50) - 2007/10/26 - 18:45:00 (ET)
Table '65282485 3' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: emmanuel111 (1070 in chips)
Seat 2: Redelboy (3740 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 3: topdog5870 (4525 in chips)
Seat 4: Hero (3750 in chips)
Seat 5: midnightca (3650 in chips)
Seat 6: udunwantnun (1665 in chips)
Seat 7: BigMill44 (2050 in chips)
Seat 8: Irrigonite (1035 in chips)
Seat 9: Zackattak13 (2070 in chips)
emmanuel111: posts small blind 25
Redelboy: posts big blind 50

Holecards:
Dealt to Hero [
diamA.gif
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]
topdog5870: calls 50
Hero : raises 150 to 200
midnightca: calls 200
udunwantnun: folds
BigMill44: folds
Irrigonite: folds
Zackattak13: raises 500 to 700
emmanuel111: folds
Redelboy: folds
topdog5870: calls 650
Hero
: ...

Plenty of potentially dead money but we're seeing lots of action here...shove? fold? call?
 
Melkor

Melkor

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Well, a lot of factors in this hand (which I am sure you know about but I am running through to try and come to a decision myself, very interesting hand):

First, the pot odds are over 3:1, so that does lean in favour of calling. However, at the same time, the money in the pot with the action not yet finished is over 1/3rd of your stack, so shoving seems to represent value as well.

The person to act behind you could be worrying, but his call to the raise does not show any real strength and two suited face cards are very possible, which shouldn't be worried about of course. The limp-caller I am not sure of, but the raise from zackattack was big enough that if he had a monster he would come over the top.

Zackattacks re-raise is strong but maybe having calmed down he thinks his raises will have a lot of effect. One thing is worrying - the re-raise represents a very large portion of his remaining chips and seems to be begging for at least one person to allow him to double up. This sets off some alarm bells here and the pot odds would be way too tempting to get him off the hand if you re-raise all-in.

Being OOP to the re-raiser I don't think a call, despite the pot odds, is feasable. There is a lot of dead money out there but with an almost pot committed re-raiser and two other players in the hand we are almost certainly behind. I would probably fold.:)
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Nice post, Melkor. I agree that we're definitely going to see some pairs here, but I think the pot may be too juicy to give up on.

If we end up seeing several pairs and no aces or kings, we could have very juicy equity in this pot.

Nobody else?
 
vanquish

vanquish

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There's no way we flatcall PF simply because AK plays poorly postflop (especially against two players) and I think both players call our shove here, which seems like bad news (I think we see the RR have AA, KK, AK, QQ way too often here, and AK vs AK vs 99 puts us at like 36% just to chop onepu person's chips), so I think putting our stack in here is a bad idea. I say duck out of the way of this and wait for a better time to collect more chips (we have decent stack, blinds are still small, etc).
 
NineLions

NineLions

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Well, it's a tougher situation than the TT hand and I didn't want to think that hard :)

AK is a yucky hand to call with, unless it's a short stack push. It's strength comes preflop knowing that short of AA/KK it does no worse that a coinflip against a single opponent, but it also loses value quickly the more opponents in the flop.

All of which y'all know. You can't 4 bet because of pot size and stack size. If you shove, if Zack has AQ or any Ace it cuts out one of your outs if someone else has a pocket pair that you're both racing. If you're both on AK against 99 you're 18%/18% to his 64%. But if he's AQ or even QQ against 99 then you're around 36% or so 2-1 odds.

Okay, I seem to have talked myself into pushing for the fold equity.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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ok I'm glad we all agree that calling is bad. <KK isn't paying us off if we hit a king or ace, and we also want to see the whole board if we're going to get involved.

So push/fold with mixed opinions.
 
J

joeeagles

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I don't like the flatcall OOP vs 2 players either. It's probably not the worst thing you can do but I don't like it. All players involved in this hand are a reason for worries because by the way you describe them I don't see them folding to a shove. Zachattack obviously is pot committed so we know he'll call, if you're correct on Topdog's range he should definitely fold after your shove and the call by Zackattack, but I'm afraid he won't and he'll end up calling with his 8's or 9's. Midnightca should fold to your shove but you never know. I wouldn't be surprised to see him with a weaker A though so he's behind but taking away 1 of your outs.

The big question is Zachattack's reraise range. I find it hard to believe it's AA, for the simple reason you have 1 A and midnightca probably has another. So that leaves another 2 which makes it still possible Zach has them but not likely. KK is more of a possibility but still not many chances of it. I think your range of AQ+ is pretty accurate, he could have another AK but it could be some AQs which you're ahead of. QQ is a strong possibility.

TBH, given the type of players involved and all the action seen so far, I don't think folding is bad. I think it's legitimate to say that some of your outs are gone and you're probably trailing at least one of these guys. Vanq's observation of the blinds still being small + you have a decent stack and + I don't think Zach's reraise represents a steal attempt (he's gotta have some kind of hand although not necessarily dominating us) all fit the bill for folding.

But being that it's a $4 donkament vs some pretty bad players, and the likelyhood Midnightca and topdog call your shove making a nice sidepot, I think I'd go for a shove and race against all of them :) . There is the chance to get a huge chip lead and a stack that'll take you to the FT. I have to admit that at a higher buy-in I probably wouldn't be saying this, but we need to also note that at higher buy-ins you don't really see many plays like the one topdog did (limp and then flat call a raise-reraise from UTG :confused: , WTH of a play is that? Can you honestly think of a hand that should be doing this? I'm scratching my head over it lol :) ). So, being pretty clear that it's a crapshoot type of tourney (or table at least), lets race with the chance of a huge chip lead if we hit.
 
NineLions

NineLions

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I have to admit that at a higher buy-in I probably wouldn't be saying this, but we need to also note that at higher buy-ins you don't really see many plays like the one topdog did (limp and then flat call a raise-reraise from UTG :confused: , WTH of a play is that? Can you honestly think of a hand that should be doing this? I'm scratching my head over it lol :) ).

You know, one of the reasons I'm following this thread is to find out what he had

:D
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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heh, I really wasn't sure either. He's either got a medium-ish pair that he can't let go of (probably 77-JJ), or he's slowplaying a monster. I don't see AK/AQ doing this...
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Well I felt that there was too much dead money in the middle to give up on this pot, and pushed. If I win, I'm a very healthy stack and can use it to my advantage to build an even bigger one. I assumed that if I lost, I'd only lose whatever zach had left (thought I could isolate him), and would still have a manageable stack. I was wrong about that obv.

pokerstars GAME #12863561635: TOURNAMENT #65282485, $4.00+$0.40 HOLD'EM NO LIMIT - LEVEL III (25/50) - 2007/10/26 - 18:45:00 (ET)
Table '65282485 3' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: emmanuel111 (1070 in chips)
Seat 2: Redelboy (3740 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 3: topdog5870 (4525 in chips)
Seat 4: ChuckTs (3750 in chips)
Seat 5: midnightca (3650 in chips)
Seat 6: udunwantnun (1665 in chips)
Seat 7: BigMill44 (2050 in chips)
Seat 8: Irrigonite (1035 in chips)
Seat 9: Zackattak13 (2070 in chips)
emmanuel111: posts small blind 25
Redelboy: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ChuckTs [Ad Kh]
topdog5870: calls 50
ChuckTs: raises 150 to 200
midnightca: calls 200
udunwantnun: folds
BigMill44: folds
Irrigonite: folds
Zackattak13: raises 500 to 700
emmanuel111: folds
Redelboy: folds
topdog5870: calls 650
ChuckTs: raises 3050 to 3750 and is all-in
midnightca: calls 3450 and is all-in
Zackattak13: calls 1370 and is all-in
topdog5870: calls 3050
*** FLOP *** [5d Qs 3h]
*** TURN *** [5d Qs 3h] [Th]
*** RIVER *** [5d Qs 3h Th] [4s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
topdog5870: shows [Js Jd] (a pair of Jacks)
ChuckTs: shows [Ad Kh] (high card Ace)
topdog5870 collected 200 from side pot-2
midnightca: shows [8d Kc] (high card King)
midnightca is sitting out
topdog5870 collected 4740 from side pot-1
Zackattak13: shows [Qd Qc] (three of a kind, Queens)
Zackattak13 collected 8355 from main pot
Gecko2k3 is connected
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 13295 Main pot 8355. Side pot-1 4740. Side pot-2 200. | Rake 0
Board [5d Qs 3h Th 4s]
Seat 1: emmanuel111 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: Redelboy (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: topdog5870 showed [Js Jd] and won (4940) with a pair of Jacks
Seat 4: ChuckTs showed [Ad Kh] and lost with high card Ace
Seat 5: midnightca showed [8d Kc] and lost with high card King
Seat 6: udunwantnun folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: BigMill44 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Irrigonite folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Zackattak13 (button) showed [Qd Qc] and won (8355) with three of a kind, Queens

K8...:eek:
 
NineLions

NineLions

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They weren't even sooted. K8?


So now we know; JJ you limp and then call anyone's preflop action.

I guess that's what you do when you have no plan for how to play JJ?
 
Falloooooon

Falloooooon

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I just threw up a little bit in my mouth.
 
J

joeeagles

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Oh well, according to cardplayer's calculator you were 28.41% to win the main pot with your AKo vs those hands, and 34.09% to win the side pot vs JJ and K8o, so your odds were good to go. I'm not saying that to justify the call, because TBH I thought the percentages were even better. I would have been happy that midnightca and topdog both called once I saw their hands. The pot went 4-way and you lost only 1 out.

Your reasoning about the dead money is fine IMO. K8 and JJ should have both folded after your shove + knowing that Zack was going to call it. So the dead money added up to 975 and you were going to get close to 3 to 1 with AKo by coming over the top vs Zack, that is if the other 2 fold. It's a bit confusing but that's the math, because your shove vs Zach means you put another 1870 and the final pot, with topdog and midnight both folding, adds up to 5115, which is 2.73 to 1. That's pretty respectable with AK.

I know all this sounds like I'm trying to justify the shove (which I suggested too), but those are the numbers and they don't lie, so I stick to my opinion that the shove was best. Honestly though had this been something more than a $4 tourney I think folding was best for many reasons and I know you probably agree with it.
 
J

jeffred1111

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Apr 16, 2007
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I probably fold here since our AK isn't sooooooooted and we know that with 2+ players, the chances of someone picking up a flush increases dramatically (so your equity drecreases form opponents picking up flushes and you not having this possibility unless it comes four flush). Plus, we're always racing here since somebody is bound to have a pp and somebody else has an Ace pretty much always. FE isn't all that high in this spot.


Plus, the blidns are hella low and the risk to reward ratio is somewhat skewed towards folding: we make a mistake giving up correct odds by folding, but we make an even greater one putting our tournament's life on a coinflip (wich is not evena coinflip) when it's really unecessary.
 
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