AK in the SB, pot raised and minreraised

J

joeeagles

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$4 donkament, you're dealt AK in the SB. UTG +1 makes a standard raise, UTG +2, who has a big stack, minreraises. Haven't played many hands on this table, so no reads to rely on. What's your play here, smooth call, raise, shove or fold?


pokerstars Game #11226602586: Tournament #56950577, $4.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2007/07/30 - 21:47:27 (ET)
Table '56950577 5' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: cairo888 (10735 in chips)
Seat 2: cr1ggp (6340 in chips)
Seat 3: easyrider56 (3650 in chips)
Seat 4: IHateFolding (1755 in chips)
Seat 5: dannydizzan (7668 in chips)
Seat 6: giarre (4650 in chips)
Seat 7: PokerManiajp (3060 in chips)
Seat 8: Dipper1965 (1100 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 9: ACEHOLEWON (3785 in chips)
giarre: posts small blind 50
PokerManiajp: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to giarre [Ks Ac]
Dipper1965: folds
ACEHOLEWON: raises 200 to 300
cairo888: raises 200 to 500
cr1ggp: folds
easyrider56: folds
IHateFolding: folds
dannydizzan: folds
giarre:?
***
 
dj11

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You'll be out of position, against 2 raisers. You will need to hit the flop, but my vote is to smooth call here. Only option is to shove it all. Fold seems morally wrong here.

I would figure UTG+1 with the stronger hand, and big stack just in it to shake things up.

You have real potential with the AK, just be ready to toss it if the flop don't hit.
 
NineLions

NineLions

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Hard to say without reads, especially on the reraiser. One thing we do know is that he's the big stack so there's a chance he's trying to take the pot down now with something from a wider range than just the top 5 hands.

I'd call as well. If you flop the straight, let him bet into you. If you catch only a K or A, bet out, but watch out as he might be on any pair from 88 up.
 
robwhufc

robwhufc

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I never cease to be amazed at what hands opponents turn over, but conventional poker wisdom would say that early position raise is big hand, early position re-raise is monster hand. Re-raiser should logically only have AA or KK.

I'd fold.
 
withawedge

withawedge

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Agree with Rob here.

I am also amazed with the junk people raise with, especially when they show total junk. Probably raiser and re-raiser have between them a small pocket pair and A Q or something of that ilk here

Call here and decide course of action after flop.
 
Wolfpack43ACC

Wolfpack43ACC

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I' reraise... then you would really get a feel for what your opponents have. Position or not. AA or KK will usually reraise, but a reraise here gives you more information.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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Fold seems morally wrong here.

Uh?

We have AK, we're out of position against two early position aggressors who we have no reads on.

- We can't shove because our stack is too larage relative to the pot to be shoving when we will invariably only be called when flipping or (usually) worse.

- We can't 'standard' raise because it would be committing us to the pot (or would be dangerously close to doing so).

- We can't call because the door is still open for UTG+1 to act and repop (what do we do then?), and because it's too much of our stack to call off against two aggressors when the majority of the time we will only get to see three board cards because we will be pushed out on the flop.

- We can't fold because... umm, well, you tell me! :)
 
robwhufc

robwhufc

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I' reraise... then you would really get a feel for what your opponents have. Position or not. AA or KK will usually reraise, but a reraise here gives you more information.
How much more information do you need? And how much are you going to bet? Betting 1,000 wont get you any info, they're bound to call for another 500 chips, betting 1,500 puts 1/3rd of your chips in the middle on an "information gathering" exercise. Dorkus is right, i dont see a bet amount that is either going to pick up the pot, or let you get away from the hand relatively unharmed. Better just to opt out and watch what happens.
 
bob_tiger

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i would just call it, see the flop and if i miss then fold
 
Ronaldadio

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IMO, I would either fold, I`ve only lost a small amount of chips, or go all in and gamble.

I agree with what everyone has said.

The big downside is your position. U call and assuming the origional raiser flat calls (Might go all in, what then?) If u miss, what do u do?

Check? Na, they will raise and then u have 2 fold.

Raise? Na, they probably have u beat.

So, if u feel lucky/ sick of getting pushed around, etc - all in.

I`m folding here ;)
 
pedroman7

pedroman7

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Your in a bad spot here oop again two people. Both in ep raising and reraising. I have to say pick a better spot. Fold, given all the action a lot of the cards you need to make a hand are likely dead anyway.
 
Ronaldadio

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:D
Your in a bad spot here oop again two people. Both in ep raising and reraising. I have to say pick a better spot. Fold, given all the action a lot of the cards you need to make a hand are likely dead anyway.

Although I don`t disagree totally, I would not say u r guarenteed to be `dead`

It`s possible that someone has woken up with AA/KK but as you have one of each it`s less likely.

I would like to know what happened and what they turned over, but my guess is that the big stack has something like AK/ AQ or a middle `problem` pair such as 88/99/1010/JJ.

The other guy, however, could be the problem.

Your positional disadvantage could be eliveated by an all in :cool:
 
Wolfpack43ACC

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i think people are overthinking this hand and giving someone too much credit for a early position raise.
 
J

joeeagles

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PokerStars Game #11226602586: Tournament #56950577, $4.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2007/07/30 - 21:47:27 (ET)
Table '56950577 5' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: cairo888 (10735 in chips)
Seat 2: cr1ggp (6340 in chips)
Seat 3: easyrider56 (3650 in chips)
Seat 4: IHateFolding (1755 in chips)
Seat 5: dannydizzan (7668 in chips)
Seat 6: giarre (4650 in chips)
Seat 7: PokerManiajp (3060 in chips)
Seat 8: Dipper1965 (1100 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 9: ACEHOLEWON (3785 in chips)
giarre: posts small blind 50
PokerManiajp: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to giarre [Ks Ac]
Dipper1965: folds
ACEHOLEWON: raises 200 to 300
cairo888: raises 200 to 500
cr1ggp: folds
easyrider56: folds
IHateFolding: folds
dannydizzan: folds
giarre: folds
PokerManiajp: folds
ACEHOLEWON: calls 200
*** FLOP *** [5h Qh 7c]
ACEHOLEWON: checks
cairo888: bets 500
ACEHOLEWON: folds
cairo888 collected 1150 from pot
cairo888: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1150 | Rake 0
Board [5h Qh 7c]
Seat 1: cairo888 collected (1150)
Seat 2: cr1ggp folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: easyrider56 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: IHateFolding folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: dannydizzan (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: giarre (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: PokerManiajp (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: Dipper1965 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: ACEHOLEWON folded on the Flop



I did fold. The reason I posted is because I kind questioned my decision, thinking it was a bit weak. I agree with Rob that sometimes its amazing to look at what hands people raise with in EP, but the minreraise is usually dangerous and a bad sign. Although there are no reads and the big stack could just be messing around, his reraise is clearly screaming for a call. I think best case scenario its QQ, worst is AA or KK. I don't think jacks or less would do this, neither would AK; those hands IMO would make a bigger, isolating reraise. At least that's what I would do.

Of course its only a $4 donkament, so if this range is wrong I wouldn't be shocked. Because of that, those who suggest to call are maybe not totally out of line. The one thing we know for sure is that if we call, we will not see more than 3 cards if we miss the flop. Considering AK hits the flop 34% of the time, the odds for calling here are good, we're getting better than 3 to 1. However, we need to consider also:

1) the chance that UTG +1 reraises or shoves, as mentioned by Chris, then what do we do? Our call doesn't close action, and that needs to be reminded.
2) if a K hits the flop, how sure are we that we're ahead?

Other options are reraising or shoving. The reraise, again pointed out by Chris, puts me dangerously close to getting pot committed and most of all it won't serve the purpose of taking the pot down there, you're either getting called by one or even both, which is terrible being OOP and you KNOW you need help from the flop. Also, someone could shove back and I would have to call knowing that, best case scenario, I'm flipping. The other option, shoving, is horrible IMO considering I have 46 BB's and this pot has been raised and reraised by EP players.

All this, plus that bad feeling I always get with minreraises, made me fold.

Unfortunately the way the hand played out I'll never know what villains had (sorry Ron :( ), but I posted because I wanted to know what you guys would have done PF.

@Wolfpack: you may be right that we're overthinking, but at best you can only call this because a reraise, in order to be relevant or informative as you say, and given the action up to that point, would need to be close to 2k. That amount gets you close to being committed and you have to act OOP. It's not an ideal move. But I won't argue a call if you like it. I folded but I don't think a call is necessarily a bad move.

Thanks to all for your comments.
 
NineLions

NineLions

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Any guesses from later play, once you've seen some of cairo's play, whether he's loose-aggressive preflop, or alternatively very tight? Obv this info doesn't help you at the time, but I'm still curious which play he might have been making.
 
Irexes

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I'd fold. Everything is stacked against you and if you call you still have to hit the flop to think you are ahead and if you do then the hands you beat preflop aren't putting in any more chips postflop on a board of Kxx or Axx (aside from possibly AQ if an A hits).

Horrid situation best resolved by getting out of there.
 
Ronaldadio

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I think sometimes, if its a small buy in or not, if someone bets into you and u have very little you have to fold - might be basic staff but its true!!!

Hand one u possibly were ahead but u folded - he might have bluffed u out and if he did gl to him.

Hand 2 u missed the flop and you had nothing at all.

Your issue/ problem here seems to be that everytime u raise the same guy reraises?

I know its hard but he might be well ahead of you when he raised. In the situations u describe the only way u will find out if this guy is bluffing or not is when u call him down - u could end up uot of the tourny and looking pretty silly :D

If he was starting to really piss u off or u were sure he was comming it I would have reraised all in in the second example. If he`d won I could have updated my notes ;) "Will reraise with a strong hand"
 
I

IVEverLow

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I think sometimes, if its a small buy in or not, if someone bets into you and u have very little you have to fold - might be basic staff but its true!!!

Hand one u possibly were ahead but u folded - he might have bluffed u out and if he did gl to him.

Hand 2 u missed the flop and you had nothing at all.

Your issue/ problem here seems to be that everytime u raise the same guy reraises?

I know its hard but he might be well ahead of you when he raised. In the situations u describe the only way u will find out if this guy is bluffing or not is when u call him down - u could end up uot of the tourny and looking pretty silly :D

If he was starting to really piss u off or u were sure he was comming it I would have reraised all in in the second example. If he`d won I could have updated my notes ;) "Will reraise with a strong hand"

I believe it's only one hand he posted here.
 
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