AK in the Big Blind.

C

Cobryn

Rock Star
I have a read on the raiser. He's tight and doesnt raise much, however he's been raising more lately than usual.

Stage #1398895518 Tourney ID 4023356 Holdem Multi Normal Tournament No Limit $200 - 2009-01-08 21:34:17 (ET)
Table: 6 (real money) Seat #7 is the dealer

Seat 1 - COBRYN ($3057.50 in chips)
Seat 2 - Villain ($6047.50 in chips)
Seat 3 - a ($6739 in chips)
Seat 4 - b ($2147.50 in chips)
Seat 5 - c ($1782.50 in chips)
Seat 6 - d ($1490 in chips)
Seat 7 - e ($2370 in chips)
Seat 9 - f ($4196 in chips)
f- Posts small blind $100
COBRYN - Posts big blind $200

*** POCKET CARDS ***

Dealt to COBRYN [Ad Kc]

Villain- Raises $700 to $700
a - Folds
b - Folds
c - Folds
d - Folds
e - Folds
f - Folds

Hero?
 
B

baudib1

Legend
I shove and don't even think twice about it. Unless you have a really rock-solid read that he only raises AA/KK here, which I really doubt, there's not much choice. Your M is 10, you should be happily shoving a lot worse.
 
M

mr tinkles

Enthusiast
I have a read on the raiser. He's tight and doesnt raise much, however he's been raising more lately than usual.
Click to expand...

Please share the read, or is that it??? What read does villian have on you? What is your tbl image, up to now?

You can shove if you want, but this is an easy flat call. See a flop and play some poker. Even put villain on a preflop hand!

Seriously, you have a drawing hand.

1. Fold, not!
2. Call, seems reasonable to me. Against any pp, you flippin, plus you can't get reraised.
3. Raise? you have a drawing hand, and who will you call the reraise for your stack? Shoving not a good idea here, imho.

Sure you OOP, but you have tip-top hole cards. Flop hits you, you can now control the hand, and can play some poker. Oh, btw, villain, has you covered. Play some poker and get a dbl up.

Ooops, may be dbl reading posts here, and/or dbl posting...
 
KingIv3rson

KingIv3rson

Enthusiast
yes u ALWAYS want to shove with AK in the big blind man always.
read up on any book and they will tell you thats what you should be doing
really you should be pushing and shoving with any premium hand
read phil gordons little green book, lotta great tips in it
 
odinscott

odinscott

Legend
edit: you cant really expect him to fold with a standard raise and you will fall under 10bb with a 1400 raise, so shove it is

editedit: you have an ace and a king, so hopefully he is on jj/qq and you are only a coinflip
jj he may fold and you pick it up free, qq and he is calling, but you are almost even
 
BelgoSuisse

BelgoSuisse

Legend
baudib1 said:
Shoving >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>folding>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>calling
Click to expand...

+2

calling is terrible as we'll be oop and will allow villain to play perfectly post flop

folding is only ok if villain is exceedingly tight and we can narrow is range to KK+. It's not the case here.

shoving is good. Fold equity + good equity vs. villain's calling range FTW.
 
B

baudib1

Legend
The only scenario in which I'd call off more than 20% of my stack preflop is when I'm holding AA/KK and plan on getting it in on any flop.
 
C

cardsDontMatter

Rock Star
The Read is Your First Line of Thinking

I would not shove against a tight player raising 3.5x the BB, and especially if he can knock me out of the tourney. I think this is a place for the Stop and Go and shove after the flop, like it didn't scare you.

All 5 cards with a preFlop shove does not give you the chance to win the hand before showdown and a tight player hates a weak flop (what if he has AK?) He will not call a shove on the flop.

Against an even or shorter stack, is definitely the place for the shove preflop on the resteal.. but against a tight player THAT YOU HAVE A READ ON.. slow it down.
 
Steveg1976

Steveg1976

...
Awards
1
cardsDontMatter said:
I would not shove against a tight player raising 3.5x the BB, and especially if he can knock me out of the tourney. I think this is a place for the Stop and Go and shove after the flop, like it didn't scare you.

All 5 cards with a preFlop shove does not give you the chance to win the hand before showdown and a tight player hates a weak flop (what if he has AK?) He will not call a shove on the flop.

Against an even or shorter stack, is definitely the place for the shove preflop on the resteal.. but against a tight player THAT YOU HAVE A READ ON.. slow it down.
Click to expand...


^^This is wrong^^

To Quote Belgo's previous post:

"calling is terrible as we'll be oop and will allow villain to play perfectly post flop"
 
KardKlub

KardKlub

Visionary
A tight player can still be a tight player even if he has been raising alot lately as it might just mean he's been getting good hands. usually the chip leader tends to stay out of the action unless he has a whopper or he has a good read on you. Unfortunately for you he bet into the crowd probably hoping someone would call or reraise him as mentioned in previous posts everyones stack in relation to the blinds are in pretty poor shape.

I would maybe put him on a pair QQ JJ, hoping to reduce the field and knowing a caller or a raise couldn't put him out but at the same time can help him build his stack more.

I guess it's down too "Do you feel Lucky? Well do ya PUNK!"
 
C

cardsDontMatter

Rock Star
Steveg1976 said:
^^This is wrong^^
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What? Hero has 15bbs, not 10. While 15bbs is an auto shove here, there is a read ... and you go with your reads first. Who cares if you're OOP? You can risk 700 and see a flop or shove blind into a Tight player who can knock you out.

Believe me, 75% of the time I am shoving heads-up, but this player raised from EP and he's Tight... I mean, c'mon.. only a hand that beats you is going to call, and any hand that doesn't won't.

It's not wrong here to call, nor is it wrong to push.. but the read dictates the action.
 
Steveg1976

Steveg1976

...
Awards
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cardsDontMatter said:
What? Hero has 15bbs, not 10. While 15bbs is an auto shove here, there is a read ... and you go with your reads first. Who cares if you're OOP? You can risk 700 and see a flop or shove blind into a Tight player who can knock you out.

Believe me, 75% of the time I am shoving heads-up, but this player raised from EP and he's Tight... I mean, c'mon.. only a hand that beats you is going to call, and any hand that doesn't won't.

It's not wrong here to call, nor is it wrong to push.. but the read dictates the action.
Click to expand...

If you believe this then the AK should be folded. Calling < Folding < Shoving.

One of AK greatest strengths is fold equity. A Stop and Go move which is what I was responding to does not exploit the fold equity.
 
B

baudib1

Legend
Hero's M is 10, he has 15 BBs.

In this situation I am shoving AK from any position regardless of action in front of me.

usually the chip leader tends to stay out of the action unless he has a whopper or he has a good read on you.
Click to expand...

Maybe things are different in your games, but in my experience this happens approximately 0% of the time. In fact the chip leader should be aggressive but what I see most of the time is that the big stack donks off most of his chips by trying to push everyone around.

AK is probably the worst hand ever to stop-and-go with.
 
C

cardsDontMatter

Rock Star
Jillychemung said:
So you have narrowed villain's range down to AA/KK since anything else AK is tied with or dominating. So if you have villain's range down to AA/KK why play at all?
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22,33,44,55,66,77,88,99,TT,JJ,QQ,KK,AA

all beat AK and as a bigstack getting even money.. i am making this call with all of them, because I am ahead.
 
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C

cardsDontMatter

Rock Star
Steveg1976 said:
If you believe this then the AK should be folded. Calling < Folding < Shoving.

One of AK greatest strengths is fold equity. A Stop and Go move which is what I was responding to does not exploit the fold equity.
Click to expand...

Your villain doesn't know you have AK, so the fold equity has nothing to do with your cards.. but your chips..

therefore.. AK is not the deciding factor here.. because preflop you can make the shove with any two.. if that is your argument.... am I not correct?
 
Steveg1976

Steveg1976

...
Awards
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cardsDontMatter said:
Your villain doesn't know you have AK, so the fold equity has nothing to do with your cards.. but your chips..

therefore.. AK is not the deciding factor here.. because preflop you can make the shove with any two.. if that is your argument.... am I not correct?
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The fold equity for AK comes from you being able to play it aggressively and fold a good portion of the range that beats you or even dominate a strong holding of his. So if he had 22-AA and you shove, most likely he will fold all but AA, KK, possibly QQ, in that case you are ahead of 70% of the holdings you put him on and AA, and KK are even more unlikely as you are holding one of each. And you if you are called by QQ or lower you are realistically coin flipping you are by no means crushed as you seem to be insinuating. The reason to shove is you are out of position and when the chips are in the middle position no longer matters.

Also in the OP the villian is described as tight but getting more active lately which widens his range a bit, once you include possibly AQ, AJ or really loose A10 this becomes and easy shove. How you would play the hand has no effect on the the villian will play the hand and that is what we are trying to analyze.
 
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C

Cobryn

Rock Star
mr tinkles said:
Please share the read, or is that it??? What read does villian have on you? What is your tbl image, up to now?
Click to expand...

I would like to think that my table image is pretty strong. I'm about 22/15 at this point of the tournament, I'm known to make continuation bets, but have shown down strong hands when called.

My read is over about 300 hands.

My read on him is 20/5 so I know he's not raising that often. He bets the flop... surprise... 31 percent of the time. I have seen him raise and show down 10/10, J/J, A/A, A/K, A/Q. His usual raise was 3x the big blind. Nearly every time. This was the first time he had deviated from that I believe. I think that had some effect on what I did.

The only other time I saw him raise from UTG was with JJ, and that was his normal 3x the big blind. And he rode that all the way to the river with an ace on board.

Yeah, I kind of really try to pay attention to the guy directly the left and right of me. I blame it on OCD or something.

I actually considered folding because I felt I was getting the best of it at the table lately, and almost didnt want to risk my entire tournament on a coin flip.

I wanted to make sure calling and seeing a flop wasnt an option here. I was pretty sure it was a terrible move to just call, which gave me two options.

However, I knew what I should do, and I pushed. I thought of the fold equity and adding that onto the probability of a coinflip or a dominating ace, it came automatic (Which is good) for me.

He turned over aces, and they held up to knock me out of the tournament.
 
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vanquish

vanquish

Legend
mr tinkles said:
Please share the read, or is that it??? What read does villian have on you? What is your tbl image, up to now?

You can shove if you want, but this is an easy flat call. See a flop and play some poker. Even put villain on a preflop hand!

Seriously, you have a drawing hand.

1. Fold, not!
2. Call, seems reasonable to me. Against any pp, you flippin, plus you can't get reraised.
3. Raise? you have a drawing hand, and who will you call the reraise for your stack? Shoving not a good idea here, imho.

Sure you OOP, but you have tip-top hole cards. Flop hits you, you can now control the hand, and can play some poker. Oh, btw, villain, has you covered. Play some poker and get a dbl up.

Ooops, may be dbl reading posts here, and/or dbl posting...
Click to expand...

P0K35 is that u
 
C

cardsDontMatterReally

Rising Star
Steveg1976 said:
The fold equity for AK comes from you being able to play it aggressively and fold a good portion of the range that beats you or even dominate a strong holding of his. So if he had 22-AA and you shove, most likely he will fold all but AA, KK, possibly QQ,.... .
Click to expand...

C'mon... cards don't matter here, do they? Reads and chips do. If you're going to push into a bigger stack heads up..

you can do it with any two... and if you believe he's got AA or KK, which I bet he does... then

you fold that AK... I'd rather push with 89 sooted.
 
bubbasbestbabe

bubbasbestbabe

Suckout Queen
Steveg1976 said:
The fold equity for AK comes from you being able to play it aggressively and fold a good portion of the range that beats you or even dominate a strong holding of his. So if he had 22-AA and you shove, most likely he will fold all but AA, KK, possibly QQ, in that case you are ahead of 70% of the holdings you put him on and AA, and KK are even more unlikely as you are holding one of each. And you if you are called by QQ or lower you are realistically coin flipping you are by no means crushed as you seem to be insinuating. The reason to shove is you are out of position and when the chips are in the middle position no longer matters.

Also in the OP the villian is described as tight but getting more active lately which widens his range a bit, once you include possibly AQ, AJ or really loose A10 this becomes and easy shove. How you would play the hand has no effect on the the villian will play the hand and that is what we are trying to analyze.
Click to expand...

Steveg is giving you the best advice here. This is exactly what was being discussed in this thread. https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/getting-preflop-ak-138404/
The only difference was that this dealt with ring games.
You didn't mention your position in the tourney. This is also a factor as to whether or not to push with AK PF.

In this situation I would push all day and night.
 
C

Cobryn

Rock Star
32 players left. 18 positions pay.

Avg. stack was around 4500 I believe. I'm positive pushing was the right move here now.
 
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