AK half my stack in PF missed flop, hold or fold?

B

Bentheman87

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Stacks:
* GunzoJ with 845
* BTN with 710
* SB with 2830
* BB with 4485
* UTG with 1365
* MP1 with 1465
* MP2 with 1800

hand.pl


hand.pl

Blinds:
Site: full tilt poker
* * Dealt to UTG:A♦ K♦
* * Sklansky group 1
Preflop: Hero calls [80]
* * 5 players fold.
* * BB raises to 160 Hero raises to 640
* * BB calls [480]
* * Total folds this street: 5
* * Potsize: 1320
Flop: 6♠ Q♠ 4♠
* * BB bets [800]

Poker Hand Converter By Cardschat.com Poker Forum

This table has been extremely loose pf, with players 3betting pf and calling all in overbets light. So I limped hoping to raise pf. Folds to BB who min raises. Of course I'd never fold here, do I just call though since it's still pretty early in the tournament? Or raise and if so was 640 a good amount, that's 4x what he bet. On the flop he puts me all in, he might have a queen, he might have a medium pair, he might have the king of spades or ace of spades and be semibluffing. I'm getting about 2.8:1, so if he had something like JJ with no spades I would only be about 3:1 underdog with two cards to come. Call or fold?
 
SeanyJ

SeanyJ

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Your raise to 640 was pretty big, a standard 3 bet is 3 times his bet so popping it up to 480 would have probably been a little better there. So instead of having 725 left if you fold here you would have 885.

If you're going to commit half of your stack to the pot pre flop you probably should have just shoved over the top of his raise. At least this way you are guaranteed to see all five cards and you wouldn't be in this awkward situation. As played I think you can fold, you'll only have an M of like 6 but it is possible to make a comeback from there.
 
odinscott

odinscott

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I am confused as to the suits. Does this show suits or are those all spades? Are the red ones hearts and the black spades?

If that last one is true, easy easy fold. If that is all rainbow, then it is 50/50 I guess. If you want to gamble go for it, but that early in the tournament you still can come back if you decide to play it safe and fold.
 
SeanyJ

SeanyJ

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Pretty sure the flop is all spades and his pocket cards are both diamonds. I think maybe you need to get your eyes checked :p
 
odinscott

odinscott

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? A♦ K♦
? 6♠ Q♠ 4♠

I guess I do because that is what I see... lol

Do you have to install that thing or something?

Edit: Oh wait a minute, I dont use IE, is that the problem? I am on Opera.

Edit Edit: Well against my better judgement, I dug IE out of my program files and tried it. There the diamonds are squares and the spades are spades. They are all straight lines in Opera. Is that a known issue?
 
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SeanyJ

SeanyJ

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I'm using Firefox and I see

A♦ K♦
6♠ Q♠ 4♠

If you can't see it in the OP you probably can't see it here but the diamonds are clearly diamonds and the spades are clearly spades :p
 
odinscott

odinscott

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I'm using Firefox and I see

A♦ K♦
6♠ Q♠ 4♠

If you can't see it in the OP you probably can't see it here but the diamonds are clearly diamonds and the spades are clearly spades :p

I see this

A|K|
6|Q|4|


:(
 
royalburrito24

royalburrito24

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Do not worry odinscott, I have the same problem. I just have to deal with it.
 
SeanyJ

SeanyJ

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Apparently your browser doesn't like the symbols, I don't know how you would fix that.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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The problem here is that our horrid preflop play has left us in somewhat of a quandry. We've limped because apparently we wanted to get raised so we could 3-bet - exactly what we wanted to happen has happened, and now we're left with little clue how to proceed.

Anytime we make a move where we want something in particular to happen, then when it happens we're left with no clue what to do, well it's usually indicative of that move being a horrible one.

Just raise preflop. Then if you get 3-bet by someone who you think is doing so loosely (not all that unlikely), stacks dictate that you can shove over them, getting your chips in while ahead of their range and negating the problem of (generally) being OOP. If you're going to limp-rr, either make it a smaller rr that doesn't near-commit you, or just shove if you think he'll call with AQ. Stacks here really aren't conductive to limp-rr'ing at all though, as the former here is a huge underbet and the latter a huge overbet.

As played, umm, probably fold? I really don't know.
 
B

Bentheman87

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To clear up any confusion the flop is all spades and I have AK both diamonds.

"The problem here is that our horrid preflop play has left us in somewhat of a quandry. We've limped because apparently we wanted to get raised so we could 3-bet - exactly what we wanted to happen has happened, and now we're left with little clue how to proceed.

Anytime we make a move where we want something in particular to happen, then when it happens we're left with no clue what to do, well it's usually indicative of that move being a horrible one.

Just raise preflop. Then if you get 3-bet by someone who you think is doing so loosely (not all that unlikely), stacks dictate that you can shove over them, getting your chips in while ahead of their range and negating the problem of (generally) being OOP. If you're going to limp-rr, either make it a smaller rr that doesn't near-commit you, or just shove if you think he'll call with AQ. Stacks here really aren't conductive to limp-rr'ing at all though, as the former here is a huge underbet and the latter a huge overbet.

As played, umm, probably fold? I really don't know."

Normally I just raise with AK from any position, probably 9 times out of 10 I'll raise, but this table was really aggressive so I decided to go for a limp raise. And what was so wrong with the size of my raise? 4 times what he bet, that's about normal for a reraise. Shove is too excessive IMO, the blinds aren't so high yet. PF might have been a bad play on my part but I'm just wondering what you guys think about postflop, can I justify a call here? He's a big stack and losing an all in to me won't hurt him too bad so he might be semibluffing or bluffing here.
 
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BelgoSuisse

BelgoSuisse

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And what was so wrong with the size of my raise? 4 times what he bet, that's about normal for a reraise. Shove is too excessive IMO, the blinds aren't so high yet.

It's not the level of the blinds that matter here, it's the size of the pot. Before you reraise, the pot is already something like 300 chips. That's more than 20% of your stack and certainly worth a shove with AK.

Anyway, the guy has a pocket pair or AQ, and if you did fold his shove on the flop, great fold. :D. But if you did plan to fold against aggression on a flop without A or K, then you should have called his raise, not reraised.
 
C

CfPoker

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You can pretty much answer this thread without looking at its contents based on the title:

"AK half my stack in PF" - This is the issue, if you're in a situation that warrants a raise/call of half your stack then you should just go and shove - the contents of the pot is probably worth winning at this point, and if you get called you get to see 5 cards to double up/eliminate someone.
 
B

Bentheman87

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"Anyway, the guy has a pocket pair or AQ, and if you did fold his shove on the flop, great fold. :D. But if you did plan to fold against aggression on a flop without A or K, then you should have called his raise, not reraised."

If he has a pocket pair with no spades then why would it be a great fold? I was getting almost 3:1 and with 6 outs I was only about a 3:1 underdog so I would call if the cards were face up. Anyway I'll go ahead and post the results. After a long think I called because I figured he would do this with the ace of spades or king of spades as a semibluff often enough for a call to be good. He had A7 with the ace of spades but made his flush on the turn, but when I called I was a little over 50% to win.
 
odinscott

odinscott

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"Anyway, the guy has a pocket pair or AQ, and if you did fold his shove on the flop, great fold. :D. But if you did plan to fold against aggression on a flop without A or K, then you should have called his raise, not reraised."

If he has a pocket pair with no spades then why would it be a great fold? I was getting almost 3:1 and with 6 outs I was only about a 3:1 underdog so I would call if the cards were face up. Anyway I'll go ahead and post the results. After a long think I called because I figured he would do this with the ace of spades or king of spades as a semibluff often enough for a call to be good. He had A7 with the ace of spades but made his flush on the turn, but when I called I was a little over 50% to win.

If you put him on the A of spades with 3 of them on the board after the flop. He had alot more outs than you did, so I think that would warrant a fold as well...
 
B

Bentheman87

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"If you put him on the A of spades with 3 of them on the board after the flop. He had alot more outs than you did, so I think that would warrant a fold as well..."

...

If I knew he had the Ace - X with the ace of spades I could call no matter what the pot odds, I would call if he bet 1000 into a 200 chip pot since I had the best hand. I was probably around a 1.2:1 favorite or so and I was getting 3:1.
 
odinscott

odinscott

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Well that goes to what I was saying about whether you really wanted to commit and put your tourney life on that one hand. You had the advantage but barely, because of how many outs he had compared to you.
 
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