Aces on First hand of $5 Sit & Go

SeanyJ

SeanyJ

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Stacks: - SeanyJ24 with 1500 - SirBoozeAlot with 1500 - burtgordon with 1500 - Randy's_Pub with 1500 - ron2573 with 1500 - omengeorge with 1500 - kwalalover with 1500 - colibra2 with 1500 - ACE_CRIS with 1500

index.pl


index.pl

Blinds: 10/20
Site: pokerstars
Dealt to SeanyJ24:
as.gif
ah.gif

* - Sklansky group 1
Preflop:
* - randy's_pub calls [20]
* - ron2573 calls [20]
**- 1 players fold.
* - kwalalover calls [20]
**- 2 players fold.
seanyj24 raises 60 to 80
* - sirboozealot calls [70]
* - burtgordon calls [60]
* - randy's_pub calls [60]
* - ron2573 calls [60]
* - kwalalover calls [60]
* - Total folds this street: 3
* - Potsize: 480
Flop:
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kc.gif

* - sirboozealot bets [60]
**- 1 players fold.
* - randy's_pub calls [60]
* - ron2573 raises 80 to 140
* - 1 players folded.
* - SeanyJ24 ...?


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Obviously I don't have any reads on anyone because it's the first hand of the sit and go. What are we thinking here?
 
dufferdevon

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My first thought is your initial raise was too low for the first hand. I know the blinds are low but you do not want four callers.
Given the flop, I would say the 140 raise has a K with a good kicker and may be a set. I would raise it to 280, which should push the others out and see what Ron does.
 
JRaD

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I really dunno except for the initial raise I prolly would've made it like ... 140 or 160 to go just to get the weaker hands out, and if someone does have a strong hand your hope is to double up right away so. I think you played it fine just would've bet stronger preflop and min-raised him just to get him on tilt lol... I love that
 
beardyian

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Preflop raise should be more especially as you have 2 limpers in before you play.

AA is weakened by the more players it is up against and so if you let 4,5 or 6 come in cheap you could have lost the hand on the flop.

On the flop i would re-raise at least the size of the pot
 
dj11

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Since it is the first hand of this tourney, and you've got a schooling problem, your only decision should be to shove, or fold.

Your initial raise should have been much bigger, $120 min after the 2 limpers. That you got 5 callers is a big problem. Like Ian says, your aces lose strength against a bigger field.

You have no reads other than you have a 6 way raised pot here, suggesting a table full of gamblers. If the $5 is not a problem for you shove it all in, pray they wise up and give you the pot. Else fold.

Yeah, like any of us would fold this here!:eek: SO your only real choice IMO is to make them pay, severely! Shove.
 
jaketrevvor

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Firstly as everyone else has said you gotta raise SO much more pf with 3 callers, I would to around 200.

On the flop i would re-raise at least the size of the pot

The pot is currently at 740 and if we're raising to pot or more we are dangerously close to being pot committed, or rather in that icky zone where we're not sure. dj your shove seems a bit excessive as we could so be up against a set, but we still don't want to make this assumption and be pushed off by KQ or something crazy. Nevertheless I think our only feasible option is to raise to 550-600 so we can hypothetically get away from a set and still have chips.

But wtf is with this crazy betting? You have a guy betting 60 into 480 pot (what?), a guy just calling that (whatwhat??), and then a guy raising to 140 in a 600 pot (whatwhatwhat???). It is apparent that you are either playing with a bunch of retards or at least one of the them is slowplaying a set - most likely both.
 
DaveE

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There's almost no chance he has KK here, omly calling pre-flop with a bunch of people in the pot already. You have to push. 22 and 55 have you beat but AK, KQ, KJ and underpairs could be raising here. Autoshove.
 
DetroitJimmy

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As played I raise up to about 500-600.If he pushes,I call.If he calls,I push on the turn.Either way I want all of the chips in the middle.If he has a set or God help him two pair,so be it.

The reason I just re-raise and not push right away is I want to get as many of his chips in the middle as I can.He's still not getting good odds to call if he has a straight draw(which is not out of the question),and pretty much commits him to the pot.

If ya lose,it wasn't meant to be and move on to the next.At least a lot of time wasn't wasted.That's what I would do anyway.
 
A

al_manadi

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your raise was way to low, you should have raised it to 200, you will only be called by AK, or AQ, AJ, by looser players and if the ace hits on the flop you're doubling or tripling up.

the only thing you're scared of is if the flop comes 10,J,9, or 10,K,J, because you will likely pay off KQ, AQ, but oh well, if that happens it wasnt meant to be.

edit: if you put your opponents on middle pockets, 88,99, or even 10,10, then there's nothing wrong with shoving it all in preflop. why let them see it for cheap when you have the boss hand?
 
aliengenius

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Also consider just an open shove. It's the first hand, and it will look like you are a frw who is playing a buy-in game and wants to gambol the first hand to try to double up or go home. You have a very good chance of getting a call, and even if no one calls you have established a crazy table image that you can exploit later.
 
Steveg1976

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Also consider just an open shove. It's the first hand, and it will look like you are a frw who is playing a buy-in game and wants to gambol the first hand to try to double up or go home. You have a very good chance of getting a call, and even if no one calls you have established a crazy table image that you can exploit later.

I agree with AG, shove. You will almost certainly get 1-3 callers and that is about the only way to get anyone else off a hand that early. Tough to do but you will either be way up or save your time.
 
ChuckTs

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Shoving's fine - there are exactly two hands that have you beat that actually fit his line, and quite a few others that will stack you that you have beat.

Agree with preflop and raising it up - 3BBs + 1BB for every limper should help you in spots like this.
 
soccerfreakjj10

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Also consider just an open shove. It's the first hand, and it will look like you are a frw who is playing a buy-in game and wants to gambol the first hand to try to double up or go home. You have a very good chance of getting a call, and even if no one calls you have established a crazy table image that you can exploit later.

My first thought is your initial raise was too low for the first hand. I know the blinds are low but you do not want four callers.
Given the flop, I would say the 140 raise has a K with a good kicker and may be a set. I would raise it to 280, which should push the others out and see what Ron does.

Both of these ideas are great. The open shove would have been sick, especially in the 5 buck SNG because most of these players are donks, but if you don't want to do that you definitely have to raise way more preflop to drastically reduce the field to one or two players. Although your aces would be the best hand against 3 or 4 hands, it is actually the underdog to win the pot unless the players have some common cards.

The open shove is often seen as a steal attempt, and will get called by stubborn mediocre hands (often for good reason because I cannot even begin to estimate how many times I have seen players open push preflop after a raise and a couple callers, only to get called and turn over J 3 off.
 
SeanyJ

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I honestly can never see myself open shoving on the first hand of any tournament, it might be a good idea because there is always idiots doing it with crappy hands but I still think it's just stupid.

Anyways, I raised it to 580 and everyone folded, I thought maybe I raised too much but with a lot of you saying I should've gone all in I don't feel too bad about it.
 
Steveg1976

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I honestly can never see myself open shoving on the first hand of any tournament, it might be a good idea because there is always idiots doing it with crappy hands but I still think it's just stupid.

Anyways, I raised it to 580 and everyone folded, I thought maybe I raised too much but with a lot of you saying I should've gone all in I don't feel too bad about it.

Sadly the raise scared them away when going all in would probably have induced a couple of callers. Sounds about right.
 
Tygran

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Here's a few things to remember. (I have only read the OP)

1) This is a $5 sng. Average level of play is going to be terrible, people will call/raise you with top (or sometimes second) pair here regardless of kicker, especially with such a weak raise preflop. And a 60 raise isn't gonna chase out most fish. If they'd limp whatever they have, they'll call 60 with what ever they have. Without position AND alot of folds, I'm raising my big hands more than usual early.

2) speaking of the raise preflop, WAY too low. I'd do at least 150-200. I might on occasion even open shove this preflop, though not very often. Why? Because you have to chase most other people out, the only reason a shove preflop here is ok is because there's a decent chance some donkey will call you. TBH though I usually only do this if there is a known poor player live in the hand already who i've seen call this sort of thing before. I don't really recommend the open shove here without these conditions, but you MUST raise alot more than you did. You will still get 1-3 callers even at 150-200 alot of the time.



Postflop I think your biggest worries are someone with either 22 or 55. I doubt there are a set of kings since KK would have gotten reraised preflop.

That said, you are most likely up against a K (KQ/KJ/KT) I would guess. Possibly a lower PP (66-TT) or something like A5. the play so far postflop is actually showing alot of weakness usually (typical donk moves of small bets/raises).

I'd raise this to oh about 400 and expect 1 of them to fold. If you get a reshove, call it. If you don't I'd probably shove the rest on the turn and expect a fold, and if he calls expect to be ahead. Only possible exception might be if another K hits on the turn.


Your other option would be just an open shove, and the reason I like this play here is because it looks like a donkey move/bluff. And therefore is more likely to be called, especially by some donkey with say KJ.
 
ChuckTs

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I honestly can never see myself open shoving on the first hand of any tournament, it might be a good idea because there is always idiots doing it with crappy hands but I still think it's just stupid.

Great reasoning there :eek:

Shoving's fine. You'll occasionally get caught vs the bottom/middle sets there but you'll get looked up by Kx and some other surprising hands a lot of the time too. As was mentioned, you might actually get more action from a shove than from a standard raise.
 
Tygran

Tygran

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syeah i've read the other replies now.. sounds like alot of agreement.

being afraid to open shove because it's the first hand is a really bad reason not too. Think about it this way..this is no hand other than the first where you are MORE likely to be called by some donk with a mediocre/weak hand than on the first if you shove.

Your 580 raise was too much... never raise more than you have to to accomplish your goal. I recommended ~400 and even that may be too much but my goal here is to keep 1 of the 2 in the hand. 580 scared them off, the guy who raised 120 might call 400. You could raise a little less than this but the less you raise the more likely you get 2 callers and that's what you don't want. If I raise too much and get 2 folds, well then I didn't accomplish my goal but that's also not a terrible result.

As ironic as this sounds, a shove post flop in this spot is probably more likely to get you one caller than a 580 raise is and thus win you alot more money.
 
H

Hovhannes

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I would play, a 5 or a 2 could not beat you, and a lot of people don't like playing low pairs so they might fold a 5-5 or a 2-2 and swear when they saw the flop. The only thing I'd worry about is that K-K hand that could always be lurking on the sideline. But that's just me.

Of course, if you're trying to play a semi-conservative game you want to fold because the flop completely missed you, Aces or not.
 
SeanyJ

SeanyJ

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I think I just gave people at this level too much credit. I'm confused why some of you think shoving after the flop would be more likely to get me a caller, is it just because it looks like I'm bluffing?

I understand that my pre flop raise was too low but some of you are saying I should of shoved and I still just think that is a mistake. I know I had three limpers before me but I still think people at this level are going to need a really big hand to be calling all in on the first hand. What if I just shove and everyone folds, I get like 100 chips isn't that a bit of a waste?
 
Steveg1976

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In the first hand a lot of times people will shove with just about any two cards. If you had shoved in this particular instance people may have thought that you were just the usual maniac looking to get a quick lead and call with less than great hands. That is good for two reasons, you have a great starting hand and it will give you a table image that is completely wrong (unless you really are a maniac). so the next time you get great cards hopefully soon they might again think you are bluffing/bullying and you can stack someone again.
 
jaketrevvor

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I understand that my pre flop raise was too low but some of you are saying I should of shoved and I still just think that is a mistake. I know I had three limpers before me but I still think people at this level are going to need a really big hand to be calling all in on the first hand. What if I just shove and everyone folds, I get like 100 chips isn't that a bit of a waste?

I refer you to above post and AG's previous post - it's not about getting value neccessarily from this hand (although of course it's a crazy newbish move so there's a chance anyway if someone reads it as this) but about exploiting an image to get value later in tourn.
 
J

jeffred1111

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Raise more preflop: a lot of people will look at their stacks after they open limp and say: "Hey it's only 210 more! I have chips to spare, let's call with 87o". Then you take their chips.

I don't like open-shoving for image because you basically have no image:
a) People don't care or are multitabling.
b) The people who see you play tight afterwards will put you on on a big hand if everyone folds. I know I would.

But I know I'm raising enough to commit me (and my opponents = 250+) and I'm pushing to any reraise.

This isn't a scary flop at all, so I'm shoving. You also have outs to the backdoor wheel !
 
DaFrench1

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AA first hand? I'm insta-shoving this pre-flop.

Weeeeeeeeeeee!
 
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