AA vs postflop push; $4 180-seater

ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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I've been tag, showed down an aggressively-played AK, and made a shortstacked push earlier in a multiway limped pot, which I took down PF.

No reads on villain as he's new to the table.

pokerstars GAME #10033486786: TOURNAMENT #50857056, $4.00+$0.40 HOLD'EM NO LIMIT - LEVEL VI (100/200) - 2007/05/21 - 15:05:12 (ET)
Table '50857056 7' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: Jeuris (6355 in chips)
Seat 2: sdoris1212 (16064 in chips)
Seat 3: Bruzer420 (1990 in chips)
Seat 4: bighaley21 (20276 in chips)
Seat 6: slideby (11193 in chips)
Seat 7: ChuckTs (6870 in chips)
Seat 8: AGX-Gerry (19653 in chips)
Seat 9: sharpeadie (8676 in chips)
sharpeadie: posts small blind 100
Jeuris: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ChuckTs [Ad] [Ah]
sdoris1212: calls 200
Bruzer420: folds
bighaley21: folds
slideby: folds
ChuckTs: raises 600 to 800
AGX-Gerry: folds
sharpeadie: calls 700
Jeuris: folds
sdoris1212: calls 600
*** FLOP *** [Qh] [7d] [3h]
sharpeadie: checks
sdoris1212: checks
ChuckTs: bets 1399
sharpeadie: raises 6477 to 7876 and is all-in
sdoris1212: folds
ChuckTs: ...

Qx? Weird two pair? Set? Flush draw?

Can we make this call?
 
Irexes

Irexes

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OOo that's horrid.

His very possible hands KK, QQ, 77, AQ (badly played)

Less likely but possible AA, 33, JJ

I don't see two pair here unless he's a total donk, I'd discount that. A flush draw won't have the ace you have that so it's less likely (though possible).


Any kind of read here that he's a bluffer or weak enough to have AQ and I call. He could also be trying to push you off what he perceives to be a c-bet.

I think it has to be either KhK, QQ or 77 or he's got Qx or JhJ if he's a tool.

My clock expired on this one a long time ago and I still don't know.

On a good day I fold this I think.
 
A

alan1983

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me calls. could be a set but id think a set most of the time tries to be a bit trickier in roping u in. But some play it fast. I call this though
 
skoldpadda

skoldpadda

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PF he's not calling w 33 I'd think. With QQ I think he'd re-pop PF.
Possibly 77, KK (although likely raise PF), AQ, or KQ. Can't really put him on much else besides a flush draw like 10J or KJ but those would be kind of nutty calls PF. I think you're ahead of most of his likely holdings and should call.
 
dj11

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Tell us u folded, so we can respect you in the morning.........
 
J

joeeagles

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If this is 2 pair its just flat out crazy. I think I'd call this because the chances of it being KK or an overplayed AQ is just too high. I believe the KK as very possible because players tend to get too cute with it PF and not reraise (I play this tourney very often and I've seen it way too much). There is a chance you're way behind (a set) but I'd make the crying call.
 
ace2daface

ace2daface

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I play these limits alot and i have to say its prob AQ KQ or KK who thinks you missed flop with 2 high cards. cant see a set. id be very surprised if you behind here. you are defo more times ahead of villian range than behind - I call this.

Can i ask you why you bet 1399 post flop? not the amount of the bet just the non-roundness (? - dont know if thats a word) of it.

Just being weird or did u do some kind of mental sklanksyesque calculation telling you that this was the EXACT optimum amount to make villian make a mistake?
 
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tiltboy

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I would not get involved in this hand - i'd fold. After some consideration it would be reasonable for him to have 7's in the hole for the set.

He calls 4x BB raise UTG - i'd have him on a mid/high pair or two high cards min A-J. Looking at his chip stack he may fancy the risk.

He doesnt bet on the Flop so now i consider him to have pocket AK, AJ, or JJ->22 (missing the flop), he would protect his hand with A-Q.

After the reraise all in i look at KK,QQ,77 or 33. Pre flop he would have reraised with KK or QQ and it would be very loose to play with 33 so i think 7's. I dont think someone will bluff with a check raise here.

I'd fold.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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It's a $4 donkament - people play exactly as villain has with AQ-QJ all the time (the fact that they probably 'shouldn't' play it like this is irrelevant - people do). QQ reraises pre the vast majority of the time, so essentially you're trailing 77 and 33 and are ahead of a huge range of others (AQ-QJ, flush draws, stupid bluffs).

This is a call. You cannot put villain on one of two hands only here.
 
Lo-Dog

Lo-Dog

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It's a $4 donkament - people play exactly as villain has with AQ-QJ all the time (the fact that they probably 'shouldn't' play it like this is irrelevant - people do). QQ reraises pre the vast majority of the time, so essentially you're trailing 77 and 33 and are ahead of a huge range of others (AQ-QJ, flush draws, stupid bluffs).

This is a call. You cannot put villain on one of two hands only here.

DM is probably right, I may well have underestimated the impact of the buy-in.


How often have you guys played tourneys at this buy in?

Except for a couple sites I can think of the lower limits like this are no more donkish than say any buyin up to 5X this amount. (This is the range of tourneys I have played in so all I have to go on)

Not everyone, maybe not even the majority of players at this level are donkeys. Some people actually know what they are doing. Many members of this site play this tourney and most of the super donks are gone by now.

I think you really over generalize the players at lower limits.

You can't justify a call here by saying everyone is a donk.
 
Irexes

Irexes

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I think you really over generalize the players at lower limits.

You can't justify a call here by saying everyone is a donk.

Certainly not saying everyone is a donk. Just that there is a wider range of hands to put the guy on at this level than in a $55. It would be a marginal fold in a $55 (and still a justifiable call) in a $4 the balance would shift to a call.

There's some excellent players at micro buy-ins and some complete donks at $200+, however on average the quality of play improves and given no other information about the player this should be a factor in deciding how to play the hand.
 
gord962

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First, I wanted to note that I agree with LoDog's rant about low limit players. I find more donkeys as I go up in levels.

Okay, on to the hand. To me, this play could say a couple things:
1) I have a small set and I don't want you to outdraw me so I am happy taking the pot down now.
2) I have 2 pair and I don't want you to outdraw me so I am happy taking the pot down now.
3) I have AQ or KQ and I think you missed your flop - call me if you got it.

It's possible they are drawing to the flush, but I'm thinking it's very unlikely as that usually doesn't involve a check-raise, they would have pushed right out of the gate.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Thanks for the replies, people. Interesting how many conflicting opinions we've got. Considering all factors (his line, the stakes level, my line etc) I'd say this range is fairly accurate:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 66.394% 66.39% 00.00% 21691 0.00 { AhAs }
Hand 1: 33.606% 33.61% 00.00% 10979 0.00 { KK-QQ, 77, 33, AQs, KQs, AQo, KQo }


Even this range is pretty tight, and I think we could probably add in some other weird combos (random FD, weird 2 pair, lower Qx) which would give me an even further advantage.

We're getting 1.81:1 pot odds, but we're a ~2:1 favourite, hence I think it's safe to say this is a pretty easy call.

Results :)():

POKERSTARS GAME #10033486786: TOURNAMENT #50857056, $4.00+$0.40 HOLD'EM NO LIMIT - LEVEL VI (100/200) - 2007/05/21 - 15:05:12 (ET)
Table '50857056 7' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: Jeuris (6355 in chips)
Seat 2: sdoris1212 (16064 in chips)
Seat 3: Bruzer420 (1990 in chips)
Seat 4: bighaley21 (20276 in chips)
Seat 6: slideby (11193 in chips)
Seat 7: ChuckTs (6870 in chips)
Seat 8: AGX-Gerry (19653 in chips)
Seat 9: sharpeadie (8676 in chips)
sharpeadie: posts small blind 100
Jeuris: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ChuckTs A♦ A♥
sdoris1212: calls 200
Bruzer420: folds
bighaley21: folds
slideby: folds
ChuckTs: raises 600 to 800
AGX-Gerry: folds
sharpeadie: calls 700
Jeuris: folds
sdoris1212: calls 600
*** FLOP *** Q♥ 7♦ 3♥
sharpeadie: checks
sdoris1212: checks
ChuckTs: bets 1399
sharpeadie: raises 6477 to 7876 and is all-in
sdoris1212: folds
ChuckTs: calls 4671 and is all-in
*** TURN *** Q♥ 7♦ 3♥ 8♥
*** RIVER *** Q♥ 7♦ 3♥ 8♥ 4♠
*** SHOW DOWN ***
sharpeadie: shows 7♣ 7♠ (three of a kind, Sevens)
ChuckTs: shows A♦ A♥ (a pair of Aces)
sharpeadie collected 14740 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 14740 | Rake 0
Board Q♥ 7♦ 3♥ 8♥ 4♠
Seat 1: Jeuris (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: sdoris1212 folded on the Flop
Seat 3: Bruzer420 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: bighaley21 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: slideby folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: ChuckTs showed A♦ A♥ and lost with a pair of Aces
Seat 8: AGX-Gerry (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: sharpeadie (small blind) showed 7♣ 7♠ and won (14740) with three of a kind, Sevens

Rex, you are weaksauce, but you'd have made a killer laydown here ;)
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Can i ask you why you bet 1399 post flop? not the amount of the bet just the non-roundness (? - dont know if thats a word) of it.

Just being weird or did u do some kind of mental sklanksyesque calculation telling you that this was the EXACT optimum amount to make villian make a mistake?

I've taken to making weird bets in MTTs lately; just for the effect of confusing my opponents :)

It's actually had a great effect; several times my opponents have been genuinely confused about my play.
 
skoldpadda

skoldpadda

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Still the right play for the range you put him on. As the old sage DM has said from time to time -- "Let them eat cake!!"... I mean "Let's not be results-oriented here!".
 
ace2daface

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unlucky chuck. As mentioned b4 i still call this.

Thought that was the reason for the weird bet size alright.
 
golan

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I gotta call. The stakes aren't that high and I do like to gamble when playing low stakes.
 
tiltboy

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Thanks for the replies, people. Interesting how many conflicting opinions we've got. Considering all factors (his line, the stakes level, my line etc) I'd say this range is fairly accurate:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 66.394% 66.39% 00.00% 21691 0.00 { AhAs }
Hand 1: 33.606% 33.61% 00.00% 10979 0.00 { KK-QQ, 77, 33, AQs, KQs, AQo, KQo }


Even this range is pretty tight, and I think we could probably add in some other weird combos (random FD, weird 2 pair, lower Qx) which would give me an even further advantage.

We're getting 1.81:1 pot odds, but we're a ~2:1 favourite, hence I think it's safe to say this is a pretty easy call.

Results :)():

POKERSTARS GAME #10033486786: TOURNAMENT #50857056, $4.00+$0.40 HOLD'EM NO LIMIT - LEVEL VI (100/200) - 2007/05/21 - 15:05:12 (ET)
Table '50857056 7' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: Jeuris (6355 in chips)
Seat 2: sdoris1212 (16064 in chips)
Seat 3: Bruzer420 (1990 in chips)
Seat 4: bighaley21 (20276 in chips)
Seat 6: slideby (11193 in chips)
Seat 7: ChuckTs (6870 in chips)
Seat 8: AGX-Gerry (19653 in chips)
Seat 9: sharpeadie (8676 in chips)
sharpeadie: posts small blind 100
Jeuris: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ChuckTs A♦ A♥
sdoris1212: calls 200
Bruzer420: folds
bighaley21: folds
slideby: folds
ChuckTs: raises 600 to 800
AGX-Gerry: folds
sharpeadie: calls 700
Jeuris: folds
sdoris1212: calls 600
*** FLOP *** Q♥ 7♦ 3♥
sharpeadie: checks
sdoris1212: checks
ChuckTs: bets 1399
sharpeadie: raises 6477 to 7876 and is all-in
sdoris1212: folds
ChuckTs: calls 4671 and is all-in
*** TURN *** Q♥ 7♦ 3♥ 8♥
*** RIVER *** Q♥ 7♦ 3♥ 8♥ 4♠
*** SHOW DOWN ***
sharpeadie: shows 7♣ 7♠ (three of a kind, Sevens)
ChuckTs: shows A♦ A♥ (a pair of Aces)
sharpeadie collected 14740 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 14740 | Rake 0
Board Q♥ 7♦ 3♥ 8♥ 4♠
Seat 1: Jeuris (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: sdoris1212 folded on the Flop
Seat 3: Bruzer420 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: bighaley21 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: slideby folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: ChuckTs showed A♦ A♥ and lost with a pair of Aces
Seat 8: AGX-Gerry (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: sharpeadie (small blind) showed 7♣ 7♠ and won (14740) with three of a kind, Sevens

Rex, you are weaksauce, but you'd have made a killer laydown here ;)

I did suspect he had a set
 
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