A hand from yesterday's Team Event 7, how would you have played it?

[MDTed]

pokerstars Game #15664674915: Tournament #75493026, $5.00+$0.50 Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2008/03/01 - 15:21:54 (ET)
Table '75493026 1' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: blankoblanco (1405 in chips)
Seat 2: MDTed (1520 in chips)
Seat 3: PLF_DBA_MAN (1665 in chips)
Seat 4: robwhufc (1465 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 5: nicoiko (1035 in chips)
Seat 6: gamedemon (1450 in chips)
Seat 7: ChuckTs (1740 in chips)
Seat 8: reglardave (1255 in chips)
Seat 9: SeanyJ24 (1365 in chips) is sitting out
reglardave: posts small blind 15
SeanyJ24: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to MDTed [Ac Kc]
blankoblanco: folds
MDTed: raises 60 to 90
PLF_DBA_MAN: folds
robwhufc: folds
nicoiko: folds
gamedemon: folds
ChuckTs: raises 180 to 270
reglardave: folds
SeanyJ24: folds
MDTed: calls 180
*** FLOP *** [Qh 8d Ks]
MDTed: bets 150
ChuckTs: raises 1320 to 1470 and is all-in
MDTed: folds
ChuckTs collected 885 from pot
ChuckTs: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 885 | Rake 0
Board [Qh 8d Ks]
Seat 1: blankoblanco folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: MDTed folded on the Flop
Seat 3: PLF_DBA_MAN folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: robwhufc folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: nicoiko folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: gamedemon folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: ChuckTs (button) collected (885)
Seat 8: reglardave (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: SeanyJ24 (big blind) folded before Flop

So, I folded. What would you have done? This was a bounty tournament so knocking out people gave you extra points. My thinking, after his initial raise was a high pocket pair. With both a K and Q on the flop I tried a small bet to see what happened, when he raised I folded.

What would you have done?

 

[CAPT. ZIGZAG]

I do believe that I wudda run with em.

The prob is. You didn't tell us what type of player ChuckT is. And the flow of the game.

-

 

[dj11]

I wish I could tell you I have a zillion hands against Chuck in my database. Alas I can not. Others may come with those zillions of hands and give that perspective.

So lets change Chuck to the generic Villain for ease.

If you are playing AK you are playing to catch one on the flop. You caught one, and are now willing to give it up?

Villain has 4 possible hands that should scare you. AA, KK, QQ, and KQ. With KQ showing on the flop, villains chances of holding anything with a K or Q is greatly diminished, so AA becomes the main culprit.

My thinking is that someone with AA pf is not going to buy the blinds and what could potentially become peanuts by reraising. Min raise possibly, mainly as a sweetener. This would tend to lessen the possibility of AA.

AQ might be a pf hand that could make that raise. If he figures you for a mid pp, his reraise is a hard bet to call, but you did it. Now with AQ he has a bit of panic, and his shove sometimes will reflect that. To him, his shove means he believes you have mid pp's or missed the flop completely.

ON THE OTHER HAND! Chuck knows that most of the players in that tourney have some abilities. Fewer fish, more read up on styles, and he could open lead here with the AA, figuring that exactly the scenario I described above could go through any player in this tourney's mind and he's got em nailed.

I have been wrong in similar circumstances enough to know it is no lock, but I'm calling that shove most of the time.

Given that it is Chuck, well, I hope some Chuck experienced players chime in here.

Since this tourney had so many outside implications, and one of the major strategies of tourneys is survival, I personally forgive you for folding

But then I am vvvvvvv

 

[The PoolBoy]

Wow That was in depth.....
AA I think hes all in pre flop so, He doesnt have that.
KJ is my best guess for what he has. Top pair good kicker.
the other option and not as likely in my humble opinion is KQ( drawing to 4 outs) or push( slick).
Since it is Bounty and you got him covered I'd tend also to make the call.

 

[Emperor IX]

Why is he all in pf with AA with these stacks? He's not going to shove and realistically get any value with it.

KJ is probably not 3bet worthy of Chuck unless he had a read that the table was nitty.

KQ ^^same as above

His most likely holding is actually AK here, and you were vying for a split pot. But AA, KK, and QQ could certainly do this as well.

 

[switch0723]

Wow That was in depth.....
AA I think hes all in pre flop so, He doesnt have that.
KJ is my best guess for what he has. Top pair good kicker.
the other option and not as likely in my humble opinion is KQ( drawing to 4 outs) or push( slick).
Since it is Bounty and you got him covered I'd tend also to make the call.

Explain your reason again as to why he doesnt have AA? I think thats the hand he most likely has, based on the re raise of an early raiser pre flop, then the raise all in on the flop.

There is a very very very slim chance that he has k,j. I very much doubt chuck would 3 bet pre flop with k,j agaisnt an early pos raiser, and if he did, i doubt he would think he was winning even with top pair.

Id fold this against chuck, his 3 bet pre flop into an early position raiser tells you he has jj+ or a,k or maybe a,q or k,q at a push. He pushes on that flop so that rules out jj and aq, so that leaves us with aa,kk,qq, a,k and k,q. Therefore I believe we have to fold so we would be calling hoping to be tying, or drawing to runner runner

 

[ChuckTs]

-What's my 3-betting range preflop?
-What's my pushing range on the flop?

Just because I have AA doesn't mean that I'm going to minimum 3-bet it or shove it preflop, that's just silly.

To give more information as MDTed has kindly omitted any info that would help for analysis here: I've been tag and MDTed has been slightly tighter. Not many big hands so far, but I've been a little active in stealing positions. I did squeeze a raise that came from Rob and was called by GameDemon, and both of them folded.

 

[jaymfc]

I would have folded , I don't get to play with chuck much but I think he is lag . they know they can get you off TPTK with the big shove . but I don't have to believe them to fold .

he could have kq or aa or he could suck out on you , I don't like risking it all on a read , I want to feel sure I have him beat . they say it's just about getting your money in with the best hand but can't tell you how many times best hand lost by the river.

wouldn't have thought bad of anyone calling there either I think most would.

 

[The PoolBoy]

We need to find out what he had. I do not play that often at all with ChuckT. My assertation on why I believe that he does not hold AA is based on his amount of reraise. I believe that in this given situation AA ChuckT comes up with larger bet preflop. Not the big shove post flop.
Further, The huge all in bet tends to make me believe that ChuckT may have misread Teds starting hand ( putting him on ace weak or sm pocket pair etc...) Teds smallish post flop bet is read as feeler bet and ChuckT is showing strengh by shoving with second best(IMO). Let's try to find out . I could easily be wrong? Been there , done it, think I might even may have T-Shirt?-

 

[switch0723]

I believe that in this given situation AA ChuckT comes up with larger bet preflop. Not the big shove post flop.
Further

Have you never value 3 bet aces or something? If he has aces, he is just maximizing value by not maknig the raise too big

 

[MDTed]

Part of my problem was that I've played against none of these people before for money. So I have no basis to compare how he's done before in games and we were maybe 20 hands into the tournament. Not a huge sampling.

I just felt that he had a pocket pair that he matched, or aces. My calling his preflop raise told him I had at least a decent starting hand, my bet after the flop told him I caught some part of it.

I'm thinking he had one of 4 hands:

Aces
Kings
Queens
AK

His all in bet put me all in, if I called and since it was still relatively early in the tournament I decided it wasn't worth it at that point. The best I thought I was hoping for was a split pot.

It would be nice to know what he had but I doubt he's going to divulge that information.

 

[NineLions]

Villain has 4 possible hands that should scare you. AA, KK, QQ, and KQ. With KQ showing on the flop, villains chances of holding anything with a K or Q is greatly diminished, so AA becomes the main culprit.

My thinking is that someone with AA pf is not going to buy the blinds and what could potentially become peanuts by reraising. Min raise possibly, mainly as a sweetener. This would tend to lessen the possibility of AA.

AQ might be a pf hand that could make that raise. If he figures you for a mid pp, his reraise is a hard bet to call, but you did it. Now with AQ he has a bit of panic, and his shove sometimes will reflect that. To him, his shove means he believes you have mid pp's or missed the flop completely.

ON THE OTHER HAND! Chuck knows that most of the players in that tourney have some abilities. Fewer fish, more read up on styles, and he could open lead here with the AA, figuring that exactly the scenario I described above could go through any player in this tourney's mind and he's got em nailed.

AA I think hes all in pre flop so, He doesnt have that.
KJ is my best guess for what he has. Top pair good kicker.
the other option and not as likely in my humble opinion is KQ( drawing to 4 outs) or push( slick).

Why is he all in pf with AA with these stacks? He's not going to shove and realistically get any value with it.

KJ is probably not 3bet worthy of Chuck unless he had a read that the table was nitty.

KQ ^^same as above

His most likely holding is actually AK here, and you were vying for a split pot. But AA, KK, and QQ could certainly do this as well.

Good hand for posting, ted.

I'm disagreeing with parts of all three of these responses.

Expecting AA to push preflop with these blinds/stacks in particular. In a freeroll or low buyin tourney or rebuy I could see that, but you lose too much value when instead you've got the chance to work the player/cards. Similarly with a min raise; against people from a forum that expouses non-minraising preflop, minraising is gonna be pretty obvious and I don't expect Chuck to be doing that except with non-AA trying to confuse someone.

I don't think KQ is out of Chuck's 3-betting range either, nor would it be out of mine. With position and repping a big hand, plus the opportunity to test the intitial raiser to see he wants to indicate AA/KK by 4-betting I don't see KQ or AQ out of the range preflop.


The bounty aspect of the tourney threw me off the entire time so I'm not sure how that affects Chuck's decision to shove, but I think the fact that you didn't 4-bet/shove against his reraise preflop tells him that you don't have AA/KK, maybe not even QQ and probably not KQ. The most likely holding that you'd have is AK. I'd guess Chuck's most likely holding is the same. If he's got you beat with AA/KK/QQ I don't know if he shoves this yet unless he thinks you're likely to look him up.