A Call is Standard Here, Right?

A

AceHoldOn

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Here is a hand from a freeroll I was in. Villian is New to the table, and this is only his 5th hand at the table. He has played every hand so far, 5 of 5, and raised q,10s UTG+1. That's all I have on him.

What range do you put on the villian on? If villian told you he had A,J, does this make it a call (Is a coin flip the right play for this stage in the tournamen)? Is raising out of the BB with 10,10 the right move? Do you want to flip for all your chips here, (if you were certain he had A,J, K,J/ K,Q). Someone walk me through this hand using your thought process. Thanks all.




pokerstars Game #11119552179: Tournament #54228404, Freeroll Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (200/400) - 2007/07/24 - 22:36:18 (ET)
Table '54228404 73' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: mattzdope (2715 in chips)
Seat 2: godofgrey (13065 in chips)
Seat 3: sweetd611 (948 in chips)
Seat 4: luvmytoo (11695 in chips)
Seat 5: talazan (30748 in chips)
Seat 6: rosienkev (3030 in chips)
Seat 7: DDSPOKER7 (11461 in chips)
Seat 8: gnreach (8609 in chips)
Seat 9: AceHoldOn (14898 in chips)
mattzdope: posts the ante 25
godofgrey: posts the ante 25
sweetd611: posts the ante 25
luvmytoo: posts the ante 25
talazan: posts the ante 25
rosienkev: posts the ante 25
DDSPOKER7: posts the ante 25
gnreach: posts the ante 25
AceHoldOn: posts the ante 25
gnreach: posts small blind 200
AceHoldOn: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to AceHoldOn
mattzdope: folds
godofgrey: folds
sweetd611: folds
luvmytoo: folds
talazan: calls 400
rosienkev: folds
DDSPOKER7: calls 400
gnreach: calls 200
AceHoldOn: raises 1400 to 1800 (do you think it is the right play to raise 10,10 out of the BB following 2 limpers and the blind?)
talazan: folds
DDSPOKER7: raises 9636 to 11436 and is all-in
gnreach: folds
AceHoldOn: Is this a standard call?
 
dj11

dj11

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I wouldn't call it a standard call, but since I got marked as calling almost this exact situation, and correctly in my mind, it would have been nice to have had a few more orbits to watch the fellow and feel more comfortable with your read.
 
Irexes

Irexes

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There's worse things than a call here given the fact that his range is massive, but generally you don't want to be getting your chips in with 30 big blinds with TT calling a reraise all in. For me it's a standard fold 99 times out 100 here. I'll back myself to find a better spot.

If you call you are probably out of the tournament half the time and there is no need to be given the situation. You raised, which told him you had a hand and he pushed which in theory told you he has a better one. Now of course he could be and it sounds like he was a maniac, but if you avoid coinflips where you are the one doing the calling then you'll get a lot further in the long run.

Getting all your chips in first of course is a whole nother matter (though not in this hand).

Preflop is fine, though I might have been inclined to check and look for the stealth set on the flop. If you raise you might make it a touch higher to shake the limpers, but again not horrid :)
 
joosebuck

joosebuck

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within the first 10 minutes of a tourney that im properly rolled for, yes. as time invested as we are i pick a better spot.
 
A

AceHoldOn

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Thanks for the responses all. There were three main things I wanted to discuss with this hand. First, is what makes this a call or a fold. Second, what ranges/hands is the villian most likely holding, and given his ranges what equity do we have against it, and how does this affect the descion? And third was, even if we knew we are in a coinflip, is this the right time in the tournament to coin flip.

I'm not sure if anyone is familiar with a Main Even hand where a player raised and another player moved all in over the top. Anyway, the player who moved all in mistakenly flipped over his cards thinking the initial raiser had called. The player who moved all in had pocket 10's, and the initial raiser said she had A,J and decided to call even though she was a coinflip. The situations sourrounding this hand could be totally different from the hand that I had, but what I was wondering is when is it OK to be in a coin flip situation. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
 
A

AceHoldOn

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There's worse things than a call here given the fact that his range is massive, but generally you don't want to be getting your chips in with 30 big blinds with TT calling a reraise all in. For me it's a standard fold 99 times out 100 here. I'll back myself to find a better spot.

If you call you are probably out of the tournament half the time and there is no need to be given the situation. You raised, which told him you had a hand and he pushed which in theory told you he has a better one. Now of course he could be and it sounds like he was a maniac, but if you avoid coinflips where you are the one doing the calling then you'll get a lot further in the long run.

Getting all your chips in first of course is a whole nother matter (though not in this hand).

Preflop is fine, though I might have been inclined to check and look for the stealth set on the flop. If you raise you might make it a touch higher to shake the limpers, but again not horrid :)



Irexes thanks for the post. I understand that there are certain times you want to coin flip and other times you do not. In your opinion, when is it time to flip 'em and when is it time to fold 'em.

Also, like you say his range is massive, doesn't this mean we could actually have him dominated here, and this makes it a call. IN this hand I had to call 9636 and the pot was at 14261. Do these odds warrant a call even if we are flipping, or is it still not the right time?

Also, what range do you think the opp. is on and given his range, and what the pot is offering us, when do we determine its a fold/call. Shouldn't we be ruling out any hands that dominate us, (could he really limp behind here w/ QQ-AA?,) I could maybe see JJ. Couldn't he also make this move with hands we dominated 88-1010?

Just curious on what kind of ranges we need to be up against to make this a profitable call. Thanks again.
 
Irexes

Irexes

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His range is big but I don't want to be putting all my chips in on a call at this stage of a tourney when I'm in no danger from the blinds. I won't call and all in with AK usually this early and all that dominates me there is AA and KK.

The answer to when to seek a coinflip is you should do so when you consider you have less than a 50% chance of doubling up if you fold or there are significant pressures relating to the size of your stack that make it the right thing to do.

To go deep in tournies usually requires winning a race or two, but it should be because you get called or circumstance dictates, no need to go looking for them this early.

As for the women calling the all in with AJ v TT, the pot and chip stacks may have dictated the call, but it seems daft to me if she was decently stacked (fnar fnar :) )
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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If it were me, I'd probably wait for a better spot:

- If your stack was only 2500 or so, a coin flip on this hand is probably as good as you can hope for. But with your stack, you're hardly pot committed and you've still got plenty of time to find a better spot

- You don't really have enough information about what kind of hands he could be making this bet with. The limp from the button is suspicious, but it wouldn't tell me enough to make the call worthwhile or risk getting crippled

He'll know you're not pot committed at this stage, and that you'll be crippled if you call and lose. He'll also know you probably haven't got a decent read on him yet. It's possible he could be using this against you to run a bluff... so maybe there's arguments for calling, but calling would hardly be automatic
 
M

Mvemjsunpx

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Here is a hand from a freeroll I was in. Villian is New to the table, and this is only his 5th hand at the table. He has played every hand so far, 5 of 5, and raised q,10s UTG+1. That's all I have on him.

When you say he has played all 5 hands, do you mean that he raised pre-flop, or just limped? If he had raised all 5, then he's probably a maniac & you should call the all-in.

AceHoldOn: raises 1400 to 1800 (do you think it is the right play to raise 10,10 out of the BB following 2 limpers and the blind?)
I seldom raise out of the BB because I like to disguise my hand in that position. You're also out of position so you want to take fewer risks. Since there are 4 players, you should look for a set or an overpair on the flop, otherwise fold. I would usually only raise TT there if I was shortstacked (then I would shove), but you obviously weren't.

Do you want to flip for all your chips here, (if you were certain he had A,J, K,J/ K,Q).
Definitely not. He has a healthy, slightly smaller stack. I think you should have called only if you were reasonably sure he's a maniac.
Also, he limped and then shoved to your raise. That type of slowplaying is common practice with a premium hand (like AA or KK) for many players.

If you were short stacked, or if he was short stacked, I think it's worth it to go for a coin-flip, but not here.
 
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