88 & 99 from the $215

M

mischman

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pokerstars Game #10017778351: Tournament #50186235, $200+$15 Hold'em No Limit -
Level II (50/100) - 2007/05/20 - 16:48:52 (ET)
Table '50186235 1068' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: mischman (10025 in chips)
Seat 2: $HARK-13 (9725 in chips)
Seat 3: JOKER181 (10350 in chips)
Seat 4: Planet Hell (9300 in chips)
Seat 5: MR PANIK X (11025 in chips)
Seat 6: olapetter (9800 in chips)
Seat 7: ThisNutForU (10125 in chips)
Seat 8: KG_760 (9550 in chips)
Seat 9: domidomy (10750 in chips)
MR PANIK X: posts small blind 50
olapetter: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to mischman [9h 9d]
ThisNutForU: folds
KG_760: raises 200 to 300
domidomy: folds
mischman: calls 300
$HARK-13: folds
JOKER181: folds
Planet Hell: folds
MR PANIK X: folds
olapetter: folds
*** FLOP *** [7s Ts 2c]
KG_760: bets 300
mischman:........................


PokerStars Game #10018356560: Tournament #50186235, $200+$15 Hold'em No Limit -
Level IV (150/300) - 2007/05/20 - 17:21:45 (ET)
Table '50186235 1068' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: mischman (6025 in chips)
Seat 2: $HARK-13 (5725 in chips)
Seat 3: JOKER181 (23600 in chips)
Seat 4: Planet Hell (6950 in chips)
Seat 5: MR PANIK X (8025 in chips)
Seat 6: olapetter (8550 in chips)
Seat 7: ThisNutForU (8775 in chips)
Seat 8: KG_760 (23150 in chips)
Seat 9: Jag1878 (22700 in chips)
$HARK-13: posts small blind 150
JOKER181: posts big blind 300
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to mischman [8c 8s]
Planet Hell: folds
MR PANIK X: folds
olapetter: folds
ThisNutForU: folds
KG_760: folds
Jag1878: raises 600 to 900
mischman:.............
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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blech.

#1 you can either raise and give up should you get called or call and re-evaluate on the turn. given that we're in position here i'm happy to call and see what he does on the turn (invariably i'd want to try to get to see a cheap showdown)

#2 i call and see a flop in position as well i think. we can't raise because our only move if we're raising is to shove because of stacks, and if we shove and get called we're either racing with AK, or (most of the time) are crushed by a higher PP. folding isn't really an option given that 88 is way ahead of a CO raiser's range.

awkward hands, tbh.
 
tenbob

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Hand 1 : I raise here, and give up if he gives me anymore action

Hand 2 : Fold. Your still deep enough , no need to go to the races yet.
 
M

mischman

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blech.

#1 you can either raise and give up should you get called or call and re-evaluate on the turn. .

OK

mischman: calls 300
*** TURN *** [7s Ts 2c] [6s]
KG_760: bets 450
mischman: .......................
 
dj11

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If this is a contest to see who can guess what you did, I will answer push fold.

If this is a test as to what I would do, well, does hair pulling count as an answer?

If this is a test to see what the right thing to do would be, well seek professional help, or a known winning player cause these are both the types of hands that get me in trouble................
 
Irexes

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Fold and fold.

Probably fold the first preflop to be honest.

With a decent stack you've no need to get involved here and you don't have the odds to play for set value. If by some miracle it's all undercards on the flop then you have to pay more to find out if you're behind.

You are losing a lot of medium sized pots here and very, very rarely winning a big one.

Medium pairs lose value once the blinds get big in MTTs to the point wher you can't limp for set value and lose even more once you see a flop.

If you are first to raise it's a different matter but here, just let it go.
 
M

mischman

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starting stack for the tournament is 10k.

I think your playing way to tight. Doesnt basic tourney strat say see cheap flops early in tournaments and play small pairs to flops cheap
 
hott_estelle

hott_estelle

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Are you still in?

1st Hand: Call flop, see how its played out on the turn

2nd Hand: Depends on the type of player you are. If you're comfortable playing with less than 20xBB stack, at those blinds, then call and see how it plays out the flop. If you're not comfortable short stacked, then fold and wait for a better spot.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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OK

mischman: calls 300
*** TURN *** [7s Ts 2c] 6♠
KG_760: bets 450
mischman: .......................

...folds because we're now only beating a bluff. Any draw that he may have been semibluffing with (spades, 98) has got there, and so we're now left hoping he's firing a second bullet with overcards, which the average player isn't doing over 30% of the time.

we called the flop so we could re-evaluate on the turn, he's continued to define his hand, we throw ours away and move on.

Edit: Rex, you really fold both of these pf? We're in position in both cases and will be able to pick up the pot a reasonable amount of the time even when we whiff the flop. I can just about understand folding #2 (although in position with a hand that's ahead of villain's range I still hate it), but the call in #1 is fine imo.
 
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J

joeeagles

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I agree with the fold PF in both hands. No need to get involved with 99 in level 2 in a pot that's already raised. It's the SM and not many hands will get the multiway action required to play for set value. Raise if 1st in, otherwise fold.

Once called, I agree with tenbob on raising the flop bet and take it from there.

On second hand, I like the PF fold but wouldn't argue a push.
 
hott_estelle

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I agree with the fold PF in both hands. No need to get involved with 99 in level 2 in a pot that's already raised. It's the SM and not many hands will get the multiway action required to play for set value. Raise if 1st in, otherwise fold.

Once called, I agree with tenbob on raising the flop bet and take it from there.

On second hand, I like the PF fold but wouldn't argue a push.

What? To both your suggestions, huh?

1st Hand: How much are you suggesting to raise? Why risk more chips? Raising the flop bet there is completely pointless. There's no need to raise the flop there unless you're absolutely sure that you have the best hand. You are suggesting that he should raise just for information. However, that information shouldn't cost that much. If you call the raise on the flop, and assess the action on the turn, you'll get just as much information as raising on the flop without committing more of your chips to the pot.

By calling the flop bet you can save chips and see what occurs next, instead of leaving yourself prone to a bluff or a push over the top of you on the flop. You might catch your trips, or you might even get checked to which would tell you that you're most likely ahead and your opponent was C-betting the flop. There is absolutely no reason to reraise that flop, when you're not absolutely sure that you're ahead.

2nd Hand: No need to push at all unless you know the original raiser is a reckless loose player. Why put tournament life on the line with just 88 preflop when you have plenty of chips to play with still. 20xBB stack, definitely enough to play with, no need to shove with 88. Call is best play if you're comfortable playing with a stack of about 15-20xBB.
 
M

mischman

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you have 10k and fold 99 to 300 chips preflop, you should be shot.

if you fold and would of caught a set, you should be shot again
 
M

mischman

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What? To both your suggestions, huh?

1st Hand: How much are you suggesting to raise? Why risk more chips? Raising the flop bet there is completely pointless. There's no need to raise the flop there unless you're absolutely sure that you have the best hand. You are suggesting that he should raise just for information. However, that information shouldn't cost that much. If you call the raise on the flop, and assess the action on the turn, you'll get just as much information as raising on the flop without committing more of your chips to the pot.

By calling the flop bet you can save chips and see what occurs next, instead of leaving yourself prone to a bluff or a push over the top of you on the flop. You might catch your trips, or you might even get checked to which would tell you that you're most likely ahead and your opponent was C-betting the flop. There is absolutely no reason to reraise that flop, when you're not absolutely sure that you're ahead.

2nd Hand: No need to push at all unless you know the original raiser is a reckless loose player. Why put tournament life on the line with just 88 preflop when you have plenty of chips to play with still. 20xBB stack, definitely enough to play with, no need to shove with 88. Call is best play if you're comfortable playing with a stack of about 15-20xBB.

Hand 1: your wrong, its not the best play IMO but raising there is fine for several reasons. You can pick the pot up right there, he could easily of missed the board. Only 1 over card. You dont want a scare card to come on the turn(which did) you also dont want a A, K, Q, to come off.

Hand 2: if you fold 88 everytime the CO raises, its just not a profitable move in the long run. Im not saying its a bad one its a non smart one for the simple reason chris stated, you raise you get a lot(1/5th) of chips. In the rare case you get called, most likely youll be racing. You will pick the pot there with a shove more often than he will have 99-AA.

Calling the 2nd hand and taking a flop is the worst thing IMO.
 
J

joeeagles

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Estelle, raising the flop bet has more than one purpose, its not only for information and its definitely not pointless.

1) Lets look at this flop, 7T2. Rags. There is a very good chance that his 300 flop bet is a c-bet. If he raised PF with a hand like a strong ace that missed this flop, your raise will get a fold here a decent % of times, saving you the risk of getting outdrawn. That alone is a good reason to raise and probably the main one.

2) If he smooth calls your raise, your show of strength will slow him down if he's weak, possibly saving you chips, depending on player, and certainly save you from some tough decisions you will have to make later in this hand. If he calls and bets out on the turn, then you should fold, and you've lost 300 on your raise but saved more by folding the turn.

3)The information that you speak about, you'll get that if he reraises, in which case you would fold and lose the extra 300, but again, it saves a larger call coming from the turn and a tough decision to make without knowing anything about his hand. He now, by reraising, has defined his hand and you know you're behind (unless he's bluffing, if so more power to him because you just can't continue this hand).

I disagree that you save chips by calling the flop bet, this road may bring you to laying down the best hand if he's aggressive enough to sell that he has a hand, and your call shows weakness and may induce him to do just that. I also disagree that by reraising you're prone to a bluff or a push over the top, since very rarely players will do that with air when you show strength with a raise on the flop.


As far as the 2nd hand goes I think you are misunderstanding what I wrote. At the very beginning of my post I stated that I like the PF fold in both hands. On the bottom when I go back to hand 2, I stated again that "I like the PF fold", and I then added that I wouldn't argue a push. I believe that means that I prefer the fold. Didn't think I really needed to address this, its pretty clear. The observation made about the push was only because I have a feeling that Misch did just that, and since his stack was shrinking from the initial 10k, I'd understand if that's what he did (the push).

There is no need to explain why the fold is better because 2 times I named it as my 1st choice, and frankly I thought it was pretty clear.

Anyway I like that we discuss hands openly disagreeing with each other because it offers an opportunity to exchange ideas which ultimately can only help and won't hurt.
 
blankoblanco

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you have 10k and fold 99 to 300 chips preflop, you should be shot.

Scary but I completely agree with misch. A PF fold here's ridiculous. I don't know why you're playing poker if you fold 99 here, tbh.
 
hott_estelle

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3)The information that you speak about, you'll get that if he reraises, in which case you would fold and lose the extra 300, but again, it saves a larger call coming from the turn and a tough decision to make without knowing anything about his hand. He now, by reraising, has defined his hand and you know you're behind (unless he's bluffing, if so more power to him because you just can't continue this hand).

So you're suggesting reraise, and the reraise you're suggesting is a minraise? Why minraise? If you want to go out and raise, the minraise accomplishes nothing. A 300 reraise on top of a 300 bet, will not make the opponent fold any hand there. On a 7-10-2 board, with two flush cards, to an opponent who raised preflop, a min-reraise of 300 to the opponent's raise of 300, will not cause the opponent to fold any hand there. AK, AQ, AJ, all call for pot odds, and you have not accomplished gaining any information. It leaves you open to adding to the pot unnecessarily, with just 99.

I'm not agreeing with the raise, but if you want to raise, you have to make the raise mean something, min-reraising accomplishes nothing. He's pot committed to call with his hand range, everytime. So, if you want to reraise, you have to make the reraise at least a pot size raise, in that size of a pot. That will allow you to either take it down right there, or allow you to gain information if he reraises you. So, if you want to reraise that flop, you're going to have to commit a sizeable portion of your stack, just on that flop, with your pair of 9s. This is an unnecessary move. Just call, minimize the chips you commit and get another card to play from.

The minraise on the flop accomplishes nothing, you won't gain information or get your opponent to even fold a C-bet hand like an AK, AQ, or AJ, or even a flush draw there.

Do you have any rationale to base your minraise there on the flop joe? I really don't see any point to it at all.
 
Stick66

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Just my 2 cents (I could be wrong):


#1 99) I think preflop action depends on the read here:
  • If the raiser is weak, re-raise to intimidate.
  • If the raiser is loose, re-raise to isolate and use position to outplay him on the flop.
  • If the raiser is tight/solid, fold and pick a better spot since he is UTG +1.
(I think a flat call is the worst option here, but could be done if the read is unclear since it is a semi-cheap price.)

#2 88) Stack size is a strong consideration here. Since the raiser is a big stack:
  • If he appears to be bullying, push and hope to double up.
  • If he appears to be guarding his stack with solid play since he has a near-equal stack next to him, fold and conserve chips.
(Again, a flat call here is not the best since chip conservation is a factor. You want a bigger blast when you DO have to push.)
 
tenbob

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One of the main reasons I raise in hand 1, is to snap off c-bets with missed AK type hands. Raising to 650 (ish) and then giving up to resistance, should also be substantially cheaper than calling down light, and lets us more than likely see the river card if called.

Hand 2 is still a fold.
 
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joeeagles

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Scary but I completely agree with misch. A PF fold here's ridiculous. I don't know why you're playing poker if you fold 99 here, tbh.


The reason for the PF fold here is explained, very well I might add, by Irexes in his post. I'm not going to get into the pot odds for set value, not because I disagree with it, actuall I totally agree, but I'll leave that to those who like to mess with numbers.

What I really like, and I recently realized this by playing many tournies, is what he says about losing, in the long run, many medium sized pots and very, very rarely winning a big one. This is very hard to argue, and it leads to making this a -EV call in the long run. Again, I haven't ran any numbers to prove this but for intuitive reasons it appears correct to me, this was something that I had thought about when calling raises with pairs like 77, 88, 99. If you can't limp with them in multiway pots or you're not 1st to raise, I'd rather fold. I will not insist on this as being ABSOLUTELY right, but I'm buying it.
 
hott_estelle

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Joe you still have answered my questions above. I really want to see you justify the re-minraise on the flop on hand #1.
 
blankoblanco

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We don't have to play it for set value, that's just a very huge bonus. The fact is we are ahead the majority of the time (many more ways to make AK/AQ/AJ than bigger pairs, and he can have more pairs lower than 99 than bigger pairs) and we're in position. If you can't play profitably in position this deep when you're even/slightly ahead of the other player's range, plus the huge bonus from our set value, I think there's a problem.

Obviously if the PFR is Phil Ivey, I'm probably folding because I know he can outplay the hell out of me. Otherwise your position, pretty good hand, and set value combined should be a nice big edge.
 
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joeeagles

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Joe you still have answered my questions above. I really want to see you justify the re-minraise on the flop on hand #1.


Relax Estelle, I'm here. If you want to argue the amount to raise thats fine, perhaps you should do more than minraising and I'll concede that. But that's not what the controversy is about. You stated in your first post that raising was pointless, and that's what I disagree with for reasons already explained, no need to go back on them. Calling down will be more expensive no matter what you raise, and it will harbor the risk of laying down the best hand if he's aggressive enough.
 
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joeeagles

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We don't have to play it for set value, that's just a very huge bonus. The fact is we are ahead the majority of the time (many more ways to make AK/AQ/AJ than bigger pairs, and he can have more pairs lower than 99 than bigger pairs) and we're in position. If you can't play profitably in position this deep when you're even/slightly ahead of the other player's range, plus the huge bonus from our set value, I think there's a problem.

Obviously if the PFR is Phil Ivey, I'm probably folding because I know he can outplay the hell out of me. Otherwise your position, pretty good hand, and set value combined should be a nice big edge.



I'm not going to argue this combu, you make some good points, mainly when you say you ahead most times here. Its just that this play requires alot of skill and ability to dodge bullets even if the PFR isn't Phil Ivey. Most times the flop won't improve you and will bring an overcard that will force you to tough decisions considering that its only level 2 and you don't know much about these guys. I just see the potential of losing many medium size pots in the long run, that's why I prefer the fold even if it may seem tight.
 
hott_estelle

hott_estelle

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Relax Estelle, I'm here. If you want to argue the amount to raise thats fine, perhaps you should do more than minraising and I'll concede that. But that's not what the controversy is about. You stated in your first post that raising was pointless, and that's what I disagree with for reasons already explained, no need to go back on them. Calling down will be more expensive no matter what you raise, and it will harbor the risk of laying down the best hand if he's aggressive enough.

I'm always relaxed no worries. The only reason why I was stressing how much you raise so much, is because that is very significant in this hand. How much you raise is the most important factor when raising in this situation. Like I said, minraise accomplishes nothing. Opponent's calling a minraise no matter what. To make the raise significant, has to be about a pot size reraise, which would be committing more of your chips unnecessarily. Either option, isn't the best option in my opinion. Calling the flop bet, and then accessing the situation on the turn will allow you to best judge the strength of your hand and the strength of your oppponent's hand.

But I don't think we're going to agree on this, just agree to disagree, because I don't think I'll be able to convince you on my point, and you won't be able to convince me on your point.
 
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