$80 NLHE MTT: $ : KK vs 33 W/ 15BB mid tournament

[Ecolando]

Hi,

This is a hand I played a few nights ago that's been on my mind. I had KK, but get beat on the river when a 3 comes to give 33 a set. Please let me know what you think.


My first mistake was probably just not going all in with 15BB preflop. But I had position, and I wanted to milk him for all I could. Same reason for checking the turn, which I probably should have bet. But overall the board wasn't that scary, so I checked.



Yatahay Network - 1200/2400 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by Holdem Manager 3 : http://www.holdemmanager.com

BTN: 122,972 (51.2 bb)
SB: 47,520 (19.8 bb)
BB: 30,320 (12.6 bb)
UTG: 57,279 (23.9 bb)
UTG+1: 61,862 (25.8 bb)
Hero (MP): 36,916 (15.4 bb)
MP+1: 68,769 (28.7 bb)
MP+2: 66,116 (27.5 bb)
CO: 212,385 (88.5 bb)

9 players post ante of 300, SB posts 1,200, BB posts 2,400

Pre Flop: (pot: 6,300) Hero has Kh Kd
fold, UTG+1 raises to 5,760, Hero calls 5,760, 5 folds, BB calls 3,360

Flop: (21,180, 3 players) Qd 8c 6s
BB checks, UTG+1 bets 6,648, Hero calls 6,648, fold

Turn: (34,476, 2 players) 4c
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks

River: (34,476, 2 players) 3s
UTG+1 bets 49,154 and is all-in, Hero calls 24,208 and is all-in

Results: 82,892 pot (0 rake)
Final Board: Qd 8c 6s 4c 3s

UTG+1 shows 3h 3c: (Three of a Kind, Threes)
(Pre 19%, Flop 8%, Turn 5%)

Hero shows Kh Kd: (One Pair, Kings)
(Pre 81%, Flop 92%, Turn 95%)

UTG+1 wins 82,892

 

[fundiver199]

Yeah this is a spot, where you 100% created your own bad beat. You should have gotten it in preflop, on the flop and on the turn. Instead you did nothing but play passively, and in the end your opponent hit his card and stacked you, because you allowed him to stay in the hand.

 

[Ecolando]

Yeah this is a spot, where you 100% created your own bad beat. You should have gotten it in preflop, on the flop and on the turn. Instead you did nothing but play passively, and in the end your opponent hit his card and stacked you, because you allowed him to stay in the hand.

OK I feel ya and agree somewhat, but consider this. I had 80% chance of winning preflop, then up to 90% on the turn / River. In this situation I could stand to win more by letting my opponent bet throughout the hand and if my odds hold up, it may be a worthwhile risk/reward.

My only objection to that scenario is that I'm already short stacked to begin with at 15bb, but If I had maybe more than 30bb I think I like the passive play. thoughts?

 

[fundiver199]

It is almost always better to bet for value than to slowplay. The only situation, where slowplay is better, is, if you have an absolute lock on the hand. If for instance in this hand flop came KK4 rainbow, then I would check back KK to give my opponent a chance to catch up or bluff the turn.

But really with 15,4BB effective the chips should just have gone in preflop. There were 12k chips in the middle, and picking those up uncontested would increase your stack by 33%, which is huge. So its totally fine, if you jam here, and everyone fold. And if someone call, thats also fine, since then you are getting it in ahead, unless they have exactly aces. So you are basically taking a really simple spot and making it complicated for no good reason.

 

[Ecolando]

It is almost always better to bet for value than to slowplay. The only situation, where slowplay is better, is, if you have an absolute lock on the hand. If for instance in this hand flop came KK4 rainbow, then I would check back KK to give my opponent a chance to catch up or bluff the turn.

But really with 15,4BB effective the chips should just have gone in preflop. There were 12k chips in the middle, and picking those up uncontested would increase your stack by 33%, which is huge. So its totally fine, if you jam here, and everyone fold. And if someone call, thats also fine, since then you are getting it in ahead, unless they have exactly aces. So you are basically taking a really simple spot and making it complicated for no good reason.

Thanks for the elaboration. That helps a lot. I have been playing too passive with a lot of marginal hands, so this will help plug that hole I hope! Cheers

 

[ZenGreen]

sorry I typed alot here and htought yo had 40bb not 15bb

 

[ZenGreen]

Yea this is all in pre

 

[rock0001]

i would just shove all in preflop. however calling isnt a terrible play considering how strong kk is postflop. the biggest mistake in this hand was just checking on the turn because you just gave him the opportunity to see a card for free without making a value bet that would make villain fold his hand before the river. ( at least in most cases)

 

[DaMooca]

With the size of your stack I think it was evident that you had a worthy hand. You probably wouldn't pay a bet in the pre and the post if you didn't have a decent hand.
If he is watching this he will not put any more chips on the turn unless he has a good value hand and he will probably check the turn.
Perhaps the best option is to bet on the turn not to give him a free card, and if he has something he will call, otherwise he folds and follows the game.

 

[Jon Poker]

Yeah this is a spot, where you 100% created your own bad beat. You should have gotten it in preflop, on the flop and on the turn. Instead you did nothing but play passively, and in the end your opponent hit his card and stacked you, because you allowed him to stay in the hand.

This is pretty spot on - think about all of the hands you are 3b jamming in this spot for value - certainly you have worse than KKs in your range to go with! Slow playing is something I could see if we were on the BTN with two rejam (squeeze) stacks in the blinds who may take the spot for us. Even then, when they don't im getting all my money in on the flop or turn -- with this many people behind - its a nightmare if we end up taking KKs to some 4 or 5 handed flop.

Flatting premiums and allowing villans to cheaply see the flop will generally do one of a few things for us::

1: villan will miss the flop with AK, AQ, etc - and we will try and get it all in only to have them fold those hands - which we could've certainly got the call from preflop.

2: villan actually out flops us and we stack off with the worst hand.

3: invite more people at the table to come into the pot for a cheaper price.

Or

4: everything plays out like a dream and we double up.

I think since villans miss the flop most of the time...we find them making more folds post flop and don't get the value we should be getting from our top tier hands. Sure when they connect well, we stack them, but hands like 66+ and strong Ax will certainly call our shove preflop vs wiffing, and folding post flop.

Fundiver is giving you good advice and good insight - the man is a winning player...disagreeing is fine and why we have these discussions but I feel like you were initially turning a blind eye to the points he made for you. We are here to help - i hope this post helps as well.