$7.50 NLHE MTT Bounty: Facing a river min-raise after villain checked all streets

Satiivas

Satiivas

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pokerstars, $6.69 + $0.81 - Hold'em No Limit - 60/120 (18 ante) - 9 players
Hand delivered by CardsChat

UTG: 9,443 (79 bb)
UTG+1 (Hero): 9,259 (77 bb)
MP: 12,461 (104 bb)
MP+1: 7,809 (65 bb)
LP: 5,070 (42 bb)
CO: 5,126 (43 bb)
BU: 7,145 (60 bb)
SB: 20,288 (169 bb)
BB: 4,633 (39 bb)

Pre-Flop: (342) Hero is UTG+1 with 9 A
1 fold, Hero raises to 270, 6 players fold, BB calls 150

Flop: (762) 5 4 7 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

Turn: (762) A (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets 602, BB calls 602

River: (1,966) 2 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets 1,080, BB raises to 2,160, Hero???

Hi!

Weird hand in the bounty builder 7.50 today, what are your thoughts on this? My own ideas:

PF: Standard open.

F: Easy check, smashes BB range and we have loads of Ax, that missed.

T: After turning an ace and being checked to twice, I definitely want to value bet. I went for a large sizing, because I feel his range is very capped, as I would expect two pairs, sets and straights to bet on the turn to get value from the loads of Ax hands in our range. Ace is also generally a great card for us to bluff on. He could still have pairs and draws with or without pairs which I think will all call our large bet.

R: Other than 22, 42s and 52s, nothing changed and after being checked to again I go for a 50% value bet after which the villain min-clicks it back so fast, that his chips go in at the same time as my river bet or maybe even before. Now we hate our life, we hate poker and we go cry in the bathroom. I mean, are we ever good here? We are getting 4:1, but this seems insanely strong to me.
 
Tracid

Tracid

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Smells like a floated draw got there to me.

Check back that river behind IMO, you have decent showdown value and, yes, that kind of bet is going to be, as you say, insanely strong more than anything else...
 
Satiivas

Satiivas

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Oh yeah, I completely missed the potential backdoor flush getting there and I guess A3s also.

Looking at it now, I don't love my river bet either. I am trying to fix my problem of not value betting thin enough, but maybe I went a bit overboard with that one.
 
Tracid

Tracid

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I'd be happy betting like that if it was a brickier river but the 2h completes pretty much all draws..

Any 3 for the wheel as well as hearts..

But considering how fast they min clicked, could've possibly been a misclick..? :dontknow:

Looking forward to reading what happened!
 
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fundiver199

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I think, you are overplaying your hand. I would bet smaller on the turn and check back river. As you already realised, the backdoor flush got there, and I think, betting again with top pair and a pretty bad kicker on such a wet board is a little thin and unnessesary. In tournaments its ok to sometimes give up a tiny bit of value to reduce variance and avoid getting check-raised on the river. Often if you have the best hand, he is not going to call anyway. A hand like 87 for instance is check-calling the turn, because it can still improve, but unless he is a massive fish, he is not calling you on the river, when you are obviously representing at the bare minimum a strong top pair.
 
Satiivas

Satiivas

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Yeah, you are absolutely right. I do like my larger turn bet for the reasons mentioned above, but I might be wrong of course. In any case, the river bet was definitely a huge blunder.

The villain had 47o, so a hand I excluded from his range after the turn check.

What do you think about the villain's play? I feel it's a bit loose defend PF, but starting from the other streets?
 
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Gusborgs22

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He knows you have an Ax when you check flop bet turn bet river since the A hits on the turn and you are the agressor (or you are trying to represent an A)
When the river completes so many draws he can be betting for value or for bluff (there are a lot of 3 and some flushes on his range, not on yours - doesnt makes sense check bet with the draw)
A3, 34, 23s, K3s sometimes

For me that river is a check, your story doesnt makes sense
Turn bet should be higher for protection or lower for value
I was watching the high rollers and when they got some hand like top top/ two pairs and there is a scary board on the turn they bet 1.5x pot for protection. The lower bet / fold for value is a good play two
GLGL

74o is really, really unthinkable. Everytime that i see a draw that 74, 73, 75 completes i dont even think about those hands. But now you know that he are defending every single hand and you can get your money back from this information
 
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fundiver199

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What do you think about the villain's play? I feel it's a bit loose defend PF, but starting from the other streets?

Preflop
74o is definitely a fold.

Flop
I would not hate him leading with two pair. He have a massive nut advantage on this board, since you dont have any of the hands, that flopped a straight or two pair, but he does. Maybe he was planning to check-raise instead, which is also ok.

Turn
Now I really think, he should lead. The A might well have hit you, but that does not always mean, you will be betting, and he needs to start building that pot. In his situation I also want to have the initiative going into the river, so that I dont allow you to check back a clean river card. He could check-raise, but aces up are possible now, so I am not sure, I want to play that massive a pot with a crappy two pair. The simplest way to play the hand is just bet turn, bet river, and this is, what I would have done.

River
Check-raising this river is an overplay in my opinion. You will have some flushes and aces up, and not many worse hands should be bet-calling on the river, even though you actually did.
 
Tracid

Tracid

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Seems like they played their BB special fairly well and put you on AK/AQ/AJ/A10 type hands.

Guess they figured (as played) you have hardly any threes and weren't drawing to the flush..

At first I figured their river min click was a bit risky based on board texture and they might have been giving themselves room to fold to a shove but their river bet is essentially committing and having thought about it, they'd usually only be losing to sets..?

I dunno, just my thoughts.. :dontknow:
 
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fundiver199

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Seems like they played their BB special fairly well and put you on AK/AQ/AJ/A10 type hands.

Guess they figured (as played) you have hardly any threes and weren't drawing to the flush..

At first I figured their river min click was a bit risky based on board texture and they might have been giving themselves room to fold to a shove but their river bet is essentially committing and having thought about it, they'd usually only be losing to sets..?

Hero can easily have a flush, and it would always be played exactly like this. It was a backdoor flush, so no point in betting the flop. But when picking up the draw on the turn and getting checked to, plus the turn is an ace, which is a perfect scare card, hero should 100% bet all his flushdraws. Hero can also have hands like A2s-A5s, that might play like this. A3s rivered a straight and the other ones have a better two pair.

In my opinion this was just a recreational player clicking buttons. A lot of these guys dont even really consider all that much, what their opponents range look like, or what they are trying to get called by. The thought proces is more like "LOL I have two pair", and thats pretty much all, there is to it.
 
Tracid

Tracid

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Hero can easily have a flush, and it would always be played exactly like this. It was a backdoor flush, so no point in betting the flop. But when picking up the draw on the turn and getting checked to, plus the turn is an ace, which is a perfect scare card, hero should 100% bet all his flushdraws. Hero can also have hands like A2s-A5s, that might play like this. A3s rivered a straight and the other ones have a better two pair.

In my opinion this was just a recreational player clicking buttons. A lot of these guys dont even really consider all that much, what their opponents range look like, or what they are trying to get called by. The thought proces is more like "LOL I have two pair", and thats pretty much all, there is to it.
Quite possibly!

One things for sure- it'd definitely be impossible to tell definitively either way based on one hand.

All conjecture and hypothetical!
 
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fundiver199

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One things for sure- it'd definitely be impossible to tell definitively either way based on one hand.


Sure but even just seeing, how he played this hand, he was clearly a recreational player. His range is way to wide, and the min-click on the river is also pretty fishy, especially because he had so little left behind. What was his plan here, if Hero 3-bet and put him in? Call it off and almost never be good, or fold getting 5:1? Both those options completely suck, and therefore its best to avoid even creating such a situation in the first place. If his hand is not good enough to check-jam the river for value, he should just call and get himself to showdown.
 
Tracid

Tracid

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Sure but even just seeing, how he played this hand, he was clearly a recreational player. His range is way to wide, and the min-click on the river is also pretty fishy, especially because he had so little left behind. What was his plan here, if Hero 3-bet and put him in? Call it off and almost never be good, or fold getting 5:1? Both those options completely suck, and therefore its best to avoid even creating such a situation in the first place. If his hand is not good enough to check-jam the river for value, he should just call and get himself to showdown.
Understand what you're saying but feel like you're missing my point... :)
 
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eetenor

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PokerStars, $6.69 + $0.81 - Hold'em No Limit - 60/120 (18 ante) - 9 players
Hand delivered by CardsChat

UTG: 9,443 (79 bb)
UTG+1 (Hero): 9,259 (77 bb)
MP: 12,461 (104 bb)
MP+1: 7,809 (65 bb)
LP: 5,070 (42 bb)
CO: 5,126 (43 bb)
BU: 7,145 (60 bb)
SB: 20,288 (169 bb)
BB: 4,633 (39 bb)

Pre-Flop: (342) Hero is UTG+1 with 9 A
1 fold, Hero raises to 270, 6 players fold, BB calls 150

Flop: (762) 5 4 7 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

Turn: (762) A (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets 602, BB calls 602

River: (1,966) 2 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets 1,080, BB raises to 2,160, Hero???

Hi!

Weird hand in the bounty builder 7.50 today, what are your thoughts on this? My own ideas:

PF: Standard open.

F: Easy check, smashes BB range and we have loads of Ax, that missed.

T: After turning an ace and being checked to twice, I definitely want to value bet. I went for a large sizing, because I feel his range is very capped, as I would expect two pairs, sets and straights to bet on the turn to get value from the loads of Ax hands in our range. Ace is also generally a great card for us to bluff on. He could still have pairs and draws with or without pairs which I think will all call our large bet.

R: Other than 22, 42s and 52s, nothing changed and after being checked to again I go for a 50% value bet after which the villain min-clicks it back so fast, that his chips go in at the same time as my river bet or maybe even before. Now we hate our life, we hate poker and we go cry in the bathroom. I mean, are we ever good here? We are getting 4:1, but this seems insanely strong to me.

Thank you for posting


Unless I have seen the villain make either a terrible play before or a great play I am folding. 90% or more of the villains (at this level) this is a value check raise only and nuts or near nuts. This is a bounty tournament the player with the bounty available just reopened the betting.

You are here getting better at poker every time you come here to learn and grow. What that means is you have a skill advantage over the player field in these smaller buy-ins. You do not need to win hands like this, you can wait until you have a much bigger edge to take chips from players.

How does that apply to this example?

On turn we bet smaller for value and then check back rivers when checked to. Why smaller? V's at this stake level will call pot sized bets with draws even draws with reverse implied odds so we get less protection with large bets on dangerous boards with our weaker holdings-which Ac9c is on this turn.

At this level our V's over slow play nut like hands on turn like 86 but do not fold to river bets even pot sized bets when the flush comes. This allows us to play a much more exploitable style on rivers by checking back.

Stack preservation is important in bounty tournaments the larger our stack stays compared to our table the more bounties we can win. So keeping bb's in our stack has more value than risking any bb's on this river runout.
We then use those bb's we saved to apply our skill in more hands and win more bounties.

Hope this helps
:):)
 
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eetenor

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Oh yeah, I completely missed the potential backdoor flush getting there and I guess A3s also.

Looking at it now, I don't love my river bet either. I am trying to fix my problem of not value betting thin enough, but maybe I went a bit overboard with that one.


Thank you for posting.

The number 1 skill that makes good poker players great is focus. The better your focus skills are the better you are as a player.

You misreading this board in game is not good- misreading the board as you post really suggests you should work on your focus.

The good news is it is a skill that can be developed if we know to work on it. Hopefully now you do.

Hope this helps
:):)
 
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