$60 NLHE Tourney Turbo: $55-5 NLHE Tourney Turbo: nlholdem/sitngo

[kinghigh41]

Just wanted to know if I did the right thing by calling here

Wanted to know if I did the right thing by calling here

Poker Stars - $55+5 Tournament Blinds: 100/200 No Limit Hold'em (6 players)
Poker Stars Hand Converter Tool from CardsChat.com

SB Hero: $1715.00
BB: $1655.00
UTG: $1025.00
MP: $930.00
CO: $1945.00
BTN: $6230.00

Pre-flop: ($300.00) Hero is SB and dealt
3 folds, BTN raises to $6205.00, Hero calls $1590.00, BB folds, BTN returned $4515.00

 

[c9h13no3]

I honestly don't know, I don't play SnG's. But I will say that this seems like a really standard spot in a tournament, and if you're playing $60 donkaments, you're probably playing stakes that are beyond your skill level.

 

[jmill]

It looks like this guy has already taken out 3 people. So, first question is, is this guy playing really aggressively with atc or when he's showed down did he actually have premium hands. Once you've thought about the plays he's made before compare them to what he's doing now, and ask yourself is he trying to steal the blinds or does he actually have a hand. And the final thing you have to decide is whether this is the spot you want to put all your money on the line. Personally, i'd probably fold, too many hands he could have that could beat mine, and i'm trying to make the money. But you dont have to listen to me i'm not that good.

 

[ManicLombax]

I don't play $55's (or near there) - but i'd rather be doing the pushing than the calling with a middle pair. Even if villain is stealing here, he could be stealing with J9s and you're still going to be flipping for your tourney. I'd probably grumble, fold, and wait for a slightly better spot.

Putting it in pokerstove, even if we put villain on shoving the top 40% of hands, you've got about a 55% to win, which given ICM is probably not a good place to call. I suppose if you're pretty sure he's shoving any two cards I would call, but otherwise I'd fold.

 

[cjatud2012]

Yay for SNGWiz!

So according to SNGWiz, if we call and BB calls only 10% of the time on top of us (which may or may not be a solid assumption), villain needs to be shoving ~70% of the time for this to be profitable from a purely ICM perspective. Do you perceive the villain to be a good player? If so he/she might be shoving closer to that number than a random.

Some other factors to consider:

- are blinds going up soon? How would that affect your strategy?
- the two players to you left are pretty short, especially UTG. How does that affect your opportunities to steal the blinds? How should that affect your current decision?
- are you practicing BRM? (kind of a trolly question, but it's a serious one)

 

[WiZZiM]

This is a fold for sure.

The big stack is not the guy we want to get invovled with, calling here and winning this hand doesn't change the dynamic of the game that much, we are now in second place, but the big stack can still shove wide into us.

What we should be doing is attacking similar stacks to us.

Cjatud, just for you're own benefit, try putting a similar stack to us on the button and see how it affects the range, i'd suggest that it will open our range up considerably and would probably include 77 to a loose shoving range.

Why? Because when we get involved in a spot with a similar stack to us in that spot, it can drastically change our equity situtation, we are now 5 handed and close to the bubble, whereas if we get involved vs a bigstack, we're still 6 handed and while it improves our situation, most $60 players will know they can shove on you wide still in the future.

basically our equity goes up a lot more when we eliminate a player as opposed to taking chips off a bigger stack.

 

[cjatud2012]

^^ okay, I switched it to this:


SB Hero: $1715.00
BB: $1945.00
UTG: $1025.00
MP: $930.00
CO: $6230.00
BTN: $1655.00

and it suggests a call for push range of ~20% or higher.

Very good point

 

[kinghigh41]

thank you everybody who gave advice on the actual hand. I guess the general idea would be to fold here, I'm just starting to understand the icm concept, what is the best way to calculate it during live play? Is pokerstove or sngwiz something I need to purchase or is it a free program on the internet?c9 I was asking about a hand, not your opion on what stakes I should be playing or if you thought the spot was pretty standard, so **** off!!

 

[ManicLombax]

Sng Wizard is a program you buy. It's got a 30 day trial. You should give it a try:

http://sngwiz.com

Pokerstove just calculates hand equity based on ranges. It's freeware:

http://pokerstove.com

 

[kinghigh41]

thank you manic, when putting my hand into the hand analysis how do I signify that I am speaking about a sitngo ,what does mtt and stt mean?

 

[WiZZiM]

thank you everybody who gave advice on the actual hand. I guess the general idea would be to fold here, I'm just starting to understand the icm concept, what is the best way to calculate it during live play? Is pokerstove or sngwiz something I need to purchase or is it a free program on the internet?c9 I was asking about a hand, not your opion on what stakes I should be playing or if you thought the spot was pretty standard, so **** off!!

Really? he is just trying to help, perhaps it doesn't seem that way. Absuing people is probably the quickest way to lose help.

I have to say i agree with C9, not trying to be a ***** or anything, but if you're asking about standard situations like this, then even if you are bankrolled for the $60's it dosent mean you are good enough to beat them consistantly. To be properly bankrolled for the $60's having at least 6,000 is what you need to be able to stand the swings.

 

[kinghigh41]

yes really, what kind of help will I be losing from this guy/girl, the part where he makes fun of the type of game I'm playing(calling them donkaments), the fact that from one hand he knows what levels I should or shouldn't be playing,
or was it the incredibley invaluable peace of information that he began his statement with "I honestly don't know, I don't play SnG's." I might not be an expert yet but I am studying the game, and I have made a profit of over $6500 in about 6000 games, and a rating of 80 on sharkscope. If you go to one of these sitngo's at almost any time of the day you will find the majority of the players at the table with a rating under 75 and in the red, so while I know I need to improve there is nothing wrong with the stakes I am playing unless you know something about math that I don't.

 

[WiZZiM]

yes really, what kind of help will I be losing from this guy/girl, the part where he makes fun of the type of game I'm playing(calling them donkaments), the fact that from one hand he knows what levels I should or shouldn't be playing,
or was it the incredibley invaluable peace of information that he began his statement with "I honestly don't know, I don't play SnG's." I might not be an expert yet but I am studying the game, and I have made a profit of over $6500 in about 6000 games, and a rating of 80 on sharkscope. If you go to one of these sitngo's at almost any time of the day you will find the majority of the players at the table with a rating under 75 and in the red, so while I know I need to improve there is nothing wrong with the stakes I am playing unless you know something about math that I don't.

It doesn't bother me what stakes you play. But the vast majority of players do not use a bankroll that can withstand a downswing. Basically, if you don't like the "advice", you're better off just ignoring it. Otherwise threads become a flame war instead of being constructive.

Just out of curiosity, what site are you playing at? I assume it is not poker stars as the $60 games are reg infested.

 

[kinghigh41]

I play pokerstars. no limit holdem 60 trubo sitngos. what does "reg infested" mean? I dont want to start a flame war. maybe Im a bit over sensitive about my bank roll.

 

[WiZZiM]

Lots of regular players. Games with a high % of good winning players.

 

[kinghigh41]

I see a lot of regs, but they usually only make up about 20 or 30 percent of the table.

 

[xdeucesx]

well 30% of the table would be roughly 3 regs per table...which cant be good haha

 

[cjatud2012]

If you really are a mid-stakes reg as you claim, then why is it that you had to come to at a micro/low-stakes forum to ask a question that is easily answered by SNGWiz? And you don't know the difference between MTT and STT? Or what reg-infested means? Or why you don't have a good understanding of ICM yet?

(serious question btw, forgive me for sounding judgmental, it just seems to me that this stuff is common knowledge to serious players)

 

[ManicLombax]

thank you manic, when putting my hand into the hand analysis how do I signify that I am speaking about a sitngo ,what does mtt and stt mean?

STT = single table tournament
MTT = multitable tournament

In hand analysis (I'm assuming you mean when you post to this forum) when you choose STT people will understand that that's a SnG. MTT can either be a SnG or a scheduled tourney. If you post an MTT hand you probably want to specify in the post what kind it is, how many players started, how many players are left, etc.

 

[ManicLombax]

Some ramblings about bankroll, stakes, etc:

I think most people here that play $60 SnG's have probably ground their way up from the $2 or $5 stakes to get there, and will have learned all of the terminology, strategy, etc. on the way up. Naturally they're surprised when someone playing a $60 tournament asks what they consider to be a pretty elementary question. There are a fair number of players out there who deposit some money, and then play far above the stakes they are rolled for, and blow their deposit pretty quickly. So while some people are more polite than others, I think their advice is not intended to be offensive, but helpful. People tend to be a little less "filtered" on the internet than they might be in person.

Now if you are just a wealthy individual, and you do have the bankroll to be playing $60 SnG's, I'd say go for it, as long as you are prepared to lose that money. The play will be at a much higher level than the entry level tournaments, but if you have $10,000 to blow on poker, I'd think playing $1 tournaments would be boring to say the least, and your play might suffer just because you don't care about winning very much. If you have the money, playing against better players would probably be beneficial. They say you learn more by losing than by winning.

So that's my theory in a nutshell. Play where you can afford it, but also where you will play your best. If you're bored, you'll tend to make sloppy plays. If you're afraid of losing the money you've invested, you'll probably not be able to play aggressively enough to be a winning player.

 

[c9h13no3]

Naturally they're surprised when someone playing a $60 tournament asks what they consider to be a pretty elementary question.

Pretty much this. Push/fold decisions like this are standard in turbos, and I don't have to play SnG's to know that. So when you ask questions about standard spots that say, a $5 SnG player might struggle with, while playing $60 SnG's, it raises some red flags.

But its cool, you can take everything personally and flip your shit when anyone tries to give you some advice.

 

[WiZZiM]

well 30% of the table would be roughly 3 regs per table...which cant be good haha

That would be considered a "good" table. The games i've seen, there are around 7 Winning regs on average. And "winning" may not be making 10% ROI, it can be as low as 1-2% and i would consider them a very good player over a decent sample. The biggest winning guys like Spacegravy are still netting an amazing 5-6% ROIs over large samples, incredible.

And fwiw, op is fos imo.

 

[JLtrooper]

That would be considered a "good" table. The games i've seen, there are around 7 Winning regs on average. And "winning" may not be making 10% ROI, it can be as low as 1-2% and i would consider them a very good player over a decent sample. The biggest winning guys like Spacegravy are still netting an amazing 5-6% ROIs over large samples, incredible.

And fwiw, op is fos imo.

In reference to Spacegravy, does that ROI include his MTT stats? Because I saw he got 3rd in a pretty big tourney like 2 days ago.

 

[WiZZiM]

In reference to Spacegravy, does that ROI include his MTT stats? Because I saw he got 3rd in a pretty big tourney like 2 days ago.

Nope. I've been studying a few of the tippity top players on sharkscope. I filtered it down to $60 9 man turbos, going at 6% is insane! I'd kill for 1-2% at that level .

 

[xdeucesx]

well then i stand corrected, haha an even worse view for op than lol