55 UTG

[ph_il]

16/45 players left. Note: this is a turbo SNG

pokerstars Game #18679622627: Tournament #94972072, $1.00+$0.10 Hold'em No Limit - Level IX (300/600) - 2008/07/08 - 18:17:30 (ET)
Table '94972072 2' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: curlylar (3550 in chips)
Seat 2: duckyss (2860 in chips)
Seat 3: Stanos69 (2250 in chips)
Seat 5: ajaxwes13 (5020 in chips)
Seat 6: 1987BIGSLICK (4730 in chips)
Seat 7: Bernie0684 (5550 in chips)
Seat 8: GrdAdThrawn (3400 in chips)
Seat 9: TRM_SHRiMP (4180 in chips)
curlylar: posts the ante 50
duckyss: posts the ante 50
Stanos69: posts the ante 50
ajaxwes13: posts the ante 50
1987BIGSLICK: posts the ante 50
Bernie0684: posts the ante 50
GrdAdThrawn: posts the ante 50
TRM_SHRiMP: posts the ante 50
Bernie0684: posts small blind 300
GrdAdThrawn: posts big blind 600
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TRM_SHRiMP [5s 5d]
TRM_SHRiMP: ????

Im in an iffy spot with a small pair UTG and the rest of the table to act behind me. So, what is my best option?

If I limp in, Im probably folding to any flop bet if I dont hit a set. The problem is that limping cost me more than 10% of my stack. I also have to worry about the blinds coming up and worse case scenario Im probably going to fold my blinds, which will cut my stack nearly in half. I can't make a standard raise here without committing myself, so if I plan on doing that then I might as well shove, right? Is folding an option here? If I do that, I still have to worry about blinds and antes and WCS, Im folding blinds to bring down to the short-stacks.

If I shove and can pick up the pot uncontested, I increase my stack by over 40%. I might get called by the shorter stacks but theres a chance I might have a slight edge over their calling/shoving range. However if I shove and lose, Im either out of the MTT or Im SS with blinds behind me.

So...best play?

 

[shrtstakatak]

with your M=10ish, i don't think this is a playable hand in this position unless you have some more info about the players and you rep at the table (if anyone even pays attention i don't know)

I would fold.

 

[shrtstakatak]

with your M=10ish

Duh not even 10 wait a minute. your M is like 4.5. I think you have to shove.
Above would apply if your M was actually 10. Sorry Brain FART~

 

[orangepeeleo]

with your M=10ish

Laughed quite hard at this until i scrolled down, thank god for the final read before you close the tab huh

It's not even 4.5, the total of the blinds and antes are 1300 so his M is actually about 3. This is a definite shove, you've still got a big enough stack for most of the table to be weary of a call, specially from UTG and the largest possibility i think is that you'll be called by 2 over cards, which isn't a bad situation for you. You never know, one of the shorter stacks may have 22-44 and decide to make a final stand.

Point is if you steal the blinds you've gave yourself another orbit with the blinds about to smash a wrecking ball thru your neatly stacked chips, with the blinds and antes you aren't gonna be able to fold your way to the money and you might not find a better spot than this, better to go out in a blaze of glory than be blinded down and push with 73o

Also, if his M = 10 then he has a 13k stack, i think i'd be chucking in a 2k raise here, the 5k stacks are probably not gonna call, and if they do you could still spike a 5 and felt them, but the 2kish stacks might push with a huge range of hands that your not in too bad shape against.

 

[robwhufc]

If I limp in, Im probably folding to any flop bet if I dont hit a set. The problem is that limping cost me more than 10% of my stack.

Mate, you're WAY past limp-and-see-a-flop stage. If you limp here, someone is going to put you all in (and then you are CALLING with a pair of 5's). It's very unlikely there will be any more post flop play in this game.

You should be going all in once a round here as a minimum. No one at the table is so shortstacked that they have to call, no-one has such a big stack they can look you up. Theres over 1K chips in the pot pre-flop! Put all the chips in, and see everyone fold.

Just ask yourself a question, if you were sitting in late position and a big stack went in UTG, what hands would you call him with?

 

[vanquish]

just fold

 

[RAMPAGE]

LIMP ALL DAY. 5's are garbage might as well hope to see a 3rd five on the board . under 3 percents chance ull c 1

 

[viking999]

Even with no antes, I'd shove every time. The antes make it an insta-shove. Hell, I wouldn't even wait to make sure the second one is definitely another five before I shove. Probably end up shoving 56 by accident 50% of the time just because 6's look like 5's.

 

[ph_il]

LIMP ALL DAY. 5's are garbage might as well hope to see a 3rd five on the board . under 3 percents chance ull c 1

Limping is definitely a no-no. I just mentioned it to explain my reasoning for not limping in.

So, I guess shove was the correct move.

Vanq, can you explain why you would fold?

 

[vanquish]

yea basically i just like to look for a better spot (even ATC in LP > shoving 55 here) imo

 

[ph_il]

yea basically i just like to look for a better spot (even ATC in LP > shoving 55 here) imo

Ah, i see.

 

[vanquish]

i'm sort of nitty in SNGs though

 

[ph_il]

i'm sort of nitty in SNGs though

Heh, I used to be. Well, I still am to a degree...I think my only problem with folding here is if I am forced to fold the blinds, Im sitting on 3180 on the button, losing 50 chips per hand I dont shove with. So I dont have a lot of chips to maneuver with. I might do this if it wasnt a turbo, but since it was, thats something else to take into account.

 

[Ihatecowboys]

push your chips in the middle and swear if you're beat. seriously. you are under the gun, blinds are going to rape you soon anyway. if 0 people call you, you take down the pot. if one person calls you, they may have a higher pair but not very likely, but those antes and blidns make the pot odds way nicer than in say a cash game no matter what a caller may have...

 

[diamond_06_06]

I probably agree more so with vanq here.

I would probably fold this hand 70% of the time and push 30%. Who's to say you will not pick up a monster in one of the blinds or get a free look from the BB and and flop something nice. Even if you are forced to fold the blinds, you will come out the other side with roughly an average sized stack compared to the other stacks on your table. I would much rather be making moves from late position, when it has folded or limped around to me with an average stack than to be committing all my chips into a pot where there will be 8 more decisions after my shove. If one of those 8 call my small pair then i am at best hoping to be 50% against 2 over cards, at worst I am against a bigger pair and a 4-1 dog.

 

[switch0723]

yea basically i just like to look for a better spot (even ATC in LP > shoving 55 here) imo

I know im late to thread, but just had to reinforce what vanquish said.

Pushing with the 5's here, we don't particularly want a call, therefore we are turning our hand into a bluff. It is more profitable to shove on the button with ATC and get our bluff through the blinds, then shove here and get our hand through the entire table

also rob said somewhere about the fact you are shoving UTG so what hands would call you. Remeber this is a $1 turbo, therefore people wont take utg shove into thought

 

[reglardave]

Shove, quadruple up, then send everybody .01

 

[robwhufc]

Pushing with the 5's here, we don't particularly want a call, therefore we are turning our hand into a bluff. It is more profitable to shove on the button with ATC and get our bluff through the blinds, then shove here and get our hand through the entire table

also rob said somewhere about the fact you are shoving UTG so what hands would call you. Remeber this is a $1 turbo, therefore people wont take utg shove into thought

The fact that it is a turbo is more important than the buy in level. Look at the dynamics of the table - the chip LEADER has 5,500 - that's an M of 5 (actually much less as the blinds will raise again probably more than once, before 5 laps).

You aren't waiting for a better hand here. Some of the 16 remaining players are going to be dealt into the money, but you cant rely on this - you've got to make your own action. If you get away with this uncalled you move from 4180 to 5180. You get called by 2 overs (and $1 or not, you are NOT going to be called by 7, 10 os which would in fact be a coin toss - maybe 2 paint, but i would have thought A 10 and pair of 8's and up is minimum here) and you are 50/50, but you do NOT win 45 player turbo's without getting one or 2 hands go your way.

I can tell you one thing for certain, with blinds at 300/600 +50, and stacks of 2M-5M for the whole table, you will not see a single hand from here to the end, where it is folded round to the button. No way.

 

[bill461]

LIMP ALL DAY. 5's are garbage might as well hope to see a 3rd five on the board . under 3 percents chance ull c 1

When deciding whether or not to play small pocket pairs for set value the 5-10 rule works best for me. Simply, if it cost less then 5% of your stack, do it, if it cost over 10% don't. In between is based on your reads. In this case limping would be out of the question.

Bill

 

[letsdothis1]

i like the analysis of robwhufc.
but with a couple of factors to be put in.
1> how have u played the table? if u have folded alot and not played many hands to this point i would shove it letting my image of tight play hopefully take down the blinds.
2> how has others played the table. if u have a couple of all in callers that had weak Aces (A6 - AT) then this would be a weary all in move to make. because u would be in coinflip situation.
3> the people in the blinds...have they folded away their blinds to other raises. you do get those people who are in blinds that get hands that are paint and feel they are obligated to call because its their blinds.
after factoring this into account then i would make my decision.
but generally with everyone even in chips and its a turbo i push it all in or fold.

 

[pitter22]

I started reading this thread with my brain kinda turned off thinking you were major shortstack with under 3M... but then realizing you are above average stack !!! pick a different spot... go through these blinds and wait for a monster... guarantee 3 or 4 people will go all-in on this next rotation as they are in the process of blinding out with less chips than you. FOLD and wait for a positional play (unlikely since someone should be pushing in front of you) or wait for that monster.

What did you do ?

 

[robwhufc]

or wait for that monster.

What is your definition of "monster"?

 

[pitter22]

88-AA AK,AQ

 

[vanquish]

The fact that it is a turbo is more important than the buy in level. Look at the dynamics of the table - the chip LEADER has 5,500 - that's an M of 5 (actually much less as the blinds will raise again probably more than once, before 5 laps).

You aren't waiting for a better hand here. Some of the 16 remaining players are going to be dealt into the money, but you cant rely on this - you've got to make your own action. If you get away with this uncalled you move from 4180 to 5180. You get called by 2 overs (and $1 or not, you are NOT going to be called by 7, 10 os which would in fact be a coin toss - maybe 2 paint, but i would have thought A 10 and pair of 8's and up is minimum here) and you are 50/50, but you do NOT win 45 player turbo's without getting one or 2 hands go your way.

I can tell you one thing for certain, with blinds at 300/600 +50, and stacks of 2M-5M for the whole table, you will not see a single hand from here to the end, where it is folded round to the button. No way.

we're not waiting for a better absolute hand. we're waiting for a better spot. big difference.

 

[robwhufc]

88-AA AK,AQ

In 2 hands you're going to have 3,000 chips. In 8 hands you are going to have 1,200. In 14 you will be out. Unless you hit one of those hands of course.

And if you do? Are you calling a push with your tournament life with 88, when you are likely to be a coin toss? When the result if you do if you get it in 10 hands time is that you triple up from 1,200 to 3,600? That's less than you've got at the moment!

How is this a better idea than pushing with 4,100 into a 1,000 pot where you if called by 2 overs you can get up to 8K/9K, and if they fold (which they will do 2 times out of 3) you are up to 5K?

we're not waiting for a better absolute hand. we're waiting for a better spot. big difference.

In 4 hands time, you will be in middle position, have 3K chips, will probably now be one of the shorter stacks (one player each hand is adding 1K to their stack). If folded to you do you push with 63os? BB hasn't played a hand either and is on just 1.5K so is pot committed?

Nope, you wait for a better spot.

In 6 hands time, we've lost a player, you're now on the button. with 3K chips. You get dealt J5 os. Big stack UTG goes all in. Do you call here?

Nope, you wait for a better spot.

Now in BB, you have 2,100 chips (blinds have just gone up). Middle position goes all in, and is raised! You have 72os. Do you call?

Nope, wait for a better spot.

2 hands later you are UTG with 1,650 chips. Average stack on table is 5K. BB has 9K chips. Ante is 100. You have 55 again. What do you do now? Wait for a better spot?

You cannot wait for a better spot in a turbo where everyone has tiny M's. First in vigorish - get in the pot first every chance you can when the situation is right - i.e. the SB and BB aren't too small or too large that they will call you. DONT let yourself get blinded down, and DO attack the 1K pot. And if you get called by JJ in mid postion when you go all in with 55 UTG, then that's just tough, but that's the chance you've got to take in this type of game (a TURBO).