$55 NLHE Deep Stacked: 99 with a King high flop against BB

[Debi]

$55 NL HE Deep Stacked: 99 with a King high flop against BB

I don't have any stats cause my HEM is ****ed for tournaments - but villian has played a lot of hands pre-flop, limps a lot and backs down quickly from raises. (debi tournie talk - don't know some of your fancy phrases). It is deep enough in the tournament that I think a 2.5 raise pre-flop is okay -but feel free to disagree.

pokerstars Game #30986959824: Tournament #181768136, $50+$5 Hold'em No Limit - Level IX (200/400) - 2009/07/28 17:28:06 ET
Table '181768136 46' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: kkleise13 (16305 in chips)
Seat 2: DaveBuffalo (10426 in chips)
Seat 3: trindo (16240 in chips)
Seat 4: vezir3000 (18657 in chips)
Seat 5: encountah (16133 in chips)
Seat 6: AKDEL (12244 in chips)
Seat 7: p5an (11766 in chips)
Seat 8: going4pro (14620 in chips)
Seat 9: dakota-xx (9399 in chips)
kkleise13: posts the ante 50
DaveBuffalo: posts the ante 50
trindo: posts the ante 50
vezir3000: posts the ante 50
encountah: posts the ante 50
AKDEL: posts the ante 50
p5an: posts the ante 50
going4pro: posts the ante 50
dakota-xx: posts the ante 50
trindo: posts small blind 200
vezir3000: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to dakota-xx [9s 9h]
encountah: folds
AKDEL: folds
p5an: folds
going4pro: folds
dakota-xx: raises 600 to 1000
kkleise13: folds
DaveBuffalo: folds
trindo: folds
vezir3000: calls 600
*** FLOP *** [7s 8s Kh]
vezir3000: checks
dakota-xx: ???

 

[dj11]

According to the read you provided, I think you have to Cbet, to the tune of about 1700-2000.

However, I think that according to that same read, you probably should have considered a 4x raise PF. You have to figure he is playing some variant of small ball (again, according to your read), and you really would have preferred him folding PF. The 2.5x PF raise from the button suggests you are not enthusiastic about this situation, or at least it didn't convince your villain.

9's are good often here, but against a small ball player, my feeling is you want to avoid tempting him into a situation where you don't want him to be. So put him in a big ball game before this tacky situation occurs again.

 

[ImolAyrton]

Cbet 2/3 of the pot.. Not a bad flop...If he is an agressive player, I would move all in if he reraises.

 

[CfPoker]

Preflop is good.

I think you have to bet this flop. I'd bet about 1400 here. Your hand is good the majority of the time, so he'll often fold. It's also the sort of bet that might invite a bluff - but this is villian dependent.

 

[JohnnyFronts]

A bet somewhere between 1400-1600 would be pretty good. It's probably going to end the hand if villain is playing fit or fold. Based on reads, what do you if they raise?

 

[pantin007]

has he shown that he is capable of slowplaying?

has he shown that he bluffs when it is checked to him?

 

[Debi]

Good questions. There was no doubt that I was going to bet - just wondering how much. If he raises I am most likely folding.

There was a small chance he was slow playing and I guess the same could be said for bluffing if he checked to me. Though bigger chance not.

So what size bet might give me the best feel for his hand?

 

[Egon Towst]

It is deep enough in the tournament that I think a 2.5 raise pre-flop is okay -but feel free to disagree.

OK, I disagree.

There are antes in the pot as well as the blinds, meaning that the pot is worth 2.5x BB instead of the usual 1.5. The average stack size at your table is ~35x BB, meaning that the players are not short of chips. You are asking the player in the Big Blind for 1.5x BB to play. In this situation, he is likely to play any two cards, especially if (as you say) he is that way inclined to begin with.

He could plausibly have Kx, or 87, or a couple of little spades, any of which could be a disaster for you, and which you could have made him fold had you made a larger pre-flop bet.

C-bet about two-thirds of the pot, I suggest, and see how he responds.

 

[Effexor]

It is deep enough in the tournament that I think a 2.5 raise pre-flop is okay -but feel free to disagree.

The BB is faced with calling 600, with nobody else in the hand, into a pot that is already 2,050, giving him better than 3-1 on the call. Easy call for a guy that likes to see lots of cheap flops. Add to that the fact that everyone has a deep stack, it's too early to start dropping the PF bet sizes.

As played, bet out about 1800. That K falls right into your PF raising range and then go from there.

 

[Effexor]

and Daks... $55 MTT?

/wipes away a single tear of joy

My little girl is all grown ups!~

I've been on a poker hiatus for too long...

 

[Debi]

and Daks... $55 MTT?

/wipes away a single tear of joy

My little girl is all grown ups!~

I've been on a poker hiatus for too long...

Yea - moving up lol. I don't play this high all the time but I am rolled for it and play it when I want to.

 

[vanquish]

i don't see the logic in betting "to see how he responds"

when you do that, you're not planning your hand.

just cbet for value (and to protect ur hand), and fold to a raise if you're sure he's seldom c/r bluffing, or c/r value-raising with worse

 

[dj11]

Gee Deb, that looks like the OP !

 

[SavagePenguin]

I bet 2/3 of the pot there. Maybe pot it. If he folds, fine. You didn't want an A to hit the turn, or a flush or a straight draw to complete.

 

[CfPoker]

OK, I disagree.

There are antes in the pot as well as the blinds, meaning that the pot is worth 2.5x BB instead of the usual 1.5. The average stack size at your table is ~35x BB, meaning that the players are not short of chips. You are asking the player in the Big Blind for 1.5x BB to play. In this situation, he is likely to play any two cards, especially if (as you say) he is that way inclined to begin with.

He could plausibly have Kx, or 87, or a couple of little spades, any of which could be a disaster for you, and which you could have made him fold had you made a larger pre-flop bet.

C-bet about two-thirds of the pot, I suggest, and see how he responds.

The preflop raise is fine.

We want the player in the big blind to play ATC if he's that way inclined. Why on earth would we not want him to? We've got a big hand.

He's getting 3-1, yes. Against your raising range this is a good price, if the cards were to be turned face up now and the board dealt. This isn't the case however. He's having to play 3 further streets OOP. The hand doesn't end preflop with the 3-1 call.

 

[Debi]

Gee Deb, that looks like the OP !

lol - I will try again tomorrow.

 

[Egon Towst]

We want the player in the big blind to play ATC if he's that way inclined. Why on earth would we not want him to?

Because this is Level 9 of the tournament and we now have a considerable investment in our chipstack. Where possible, we should look to simplify decision-making and not to permit a situation where we are playing in the dark against an opponent whose range we cannot discern with any clarity.

It`s a strategic consideration, and is the area in which tournament play differs most significantly from cash games. In a cash game, we wouldn`t care at all if the opponent played a weird hand in this scenario and occasionally got lucky against us. We would just reload and carry on.

In a tournament, the value of our stack includes the opportunity cost of the time we have spent in the game so far. During the early levels, we can play as if it were a cash game and reload (ie. join the next tournament) with little concern if busted. By Level 9 we have invested (depending on the structure of the individual tourney) 2 hours or more of playing time, and this should influence our decisions.

I do not at all suggest that we should turn nitty as the tournament proceeeds. In fact, regulars will know that I generally advocate an aggressive approach to late-stage tourney play. I do, though, suggest that we take the opportunity, wherever we reasonably can, to avoid having to make difficult decisions with insufficient information.

 

[Egon Towst]

just cbet for value (and to protect ur hand), and fold to a raise if you're sure he's seldom c/r bluffing, or c/r value-raising with worse

In other words, your next action will depend on his response, which was what I said. I think we agree and are only arguing semantics, m8. Sorry if I expressed myself poorly.

 

[Debi]

Okay - I bet about half the pot (I see now I fell a tad short lol). One of the reasons I posted this was that I wasn't confident in that bet size. Most of you are saying 2/3 of the pot and that makes sense to me. Here is what happened next:

PokerStars Game #30986959824: Tournament #181768136, $50+$5 Hold'em No Limit - Level IX (200/400) - 2009/07/28 17:28:06 ET
Table '181768136 46' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: kkleise13 (16305 in chips)
Seat 2: DaveBuffalo (10426 in chips)
Seat 3: trindo (16240 in chips)
Seat 4: vezir3000 (18657 in chips)
Seat 5: encountah (16133 in chips)
Seat 6: AKDEL (12244 in chips)
Seat 7: p5an (11766 in chips)
Seat 8: going4pro (14620 in chips)
Seat 9: dakota-xx (9399 in chips)
kkleise13: posts the ante 50
DaveBuffalo: posts the ante 50
trindo: posts the ante 50
vezir3000: posts the ante 50
encountah: posts the ante 50
AKDEL: posts the ante 50
p5an: posts the ante 50
going4pro: posts the ante 50
dakota-xx: posts the ante 50
trindo: posts small blind 200
vezir3000: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to dakota-xx [9s 9h]
encountah: folds
AKDEL: folds
p5an: folds
going4pro: folds
dakota-xx: raises 600 to 1000
kkleise13: folds
DaveBuffalo: folds
trindo: folds
vezir3000: calls 600
*** FLOP *** [7s 8s Kh]
vezir3000: checks
dakota-xx: bets 1200
vezir3000: calls 1200
*** TURN *** [7s 8s Kh] [Kc]
vezir3000: checks
dakota-xx: ??

 

[CfPoker]

Flop bet is fine. I'd maybe bet a couple of hundred more, but no real difference.

On the turn I would probably check behind. If you bet and the villian raises then you probably have to fold. If you bet, and he calls, and he then leads the river then the pot has got quite expensive. If you bet, and he's got nothing, or just an 8 or 7 then he'll probably fold. If you check though and he's got one of these hands then he may well bet the river.

So: check turn. Call a river bet. If he checks the river then you might try and value bet against a 7/8, but we'll wait until the next step for that

 

[dj11]

This is the 'deep shit' situation we all love to hate.

Is he trapping with a K-X? Did he miss his Ace-X? Has he paired his 7 and/or 8? and a few other scary possibilities. Remember, by your read he could have started with almost ATC, but by that same read he hasn't backed down. SO I have to give some consideration that he has hit something, either a dealt small pair, or one of the flop cards. The read factoid that he limps a lot, suggests we can not discount the K-X holding.

Since you have set a tone in this hand, I suggest you continue with a bet of 2,000. On the one hand it will look like a value bet, on the other hand it might look like a wimpy attempt to steal with an exit strategy.

The other sane option here is to check. In this case you almost relinquish your positional advantage, and it's likely he knows that you know this. However, if he reads you as tight (like many of us used to) He will likely bet out on the river almost regardless of what falls, and you will be hard pressed to continue.

However, you suggest villain is not the aggressive type (limps a lot, sees a lot) Which lends some credence to him holding a A8, or A7 hand, or 2 spades and he is down to 10 outs, or 6 outs if he doesn't have 2 spades.

I favor the 2,000 bet here, maybe even 2,200.

 

[vanquish]

i don't get how you "relinquish your positional advantage" by checking behind. you get to close the action on the river, you have the ultimate advantage...

 

[Debi]

Well - when he just called my 1200 I decided I had him beat - I didn't think he had a K or a pair higher than 9's. So I tried to figure out the most I could get him to call with and decided it was the rest of the chips:

PokerStars Game #30986959824: Tournament #181768136, $50+$5 Hold'em No Limit - Level IX (200/400) - 2009/07/28 17:28:06 ET
Table '181768136 46' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: kkleise13 (16305 in chips)
Seat 2: DaveBuffalo (10426 in chips)
Seat 3: trindo (16240 in chips)
Seat 4: vezir3000 (18657 in chips)
Seat 5: encountah (16133 in chips)
Seat 6: AKDEL (12244 in chips)
Seat 7: p5an (11766 in chips)
Seat 8: going4pro (14620 in chips)
Seat 9: dakota-xx (9399 in chips)
kkleise13: posts the ante 50
DaveBuffalo: posts the ante 50
trindo: posts the ante 50
vezir3000: posts the ante 50
encountah: posts the ante 50
AKDEL: posts the ante 50
p5an: posts the ante 50
going4pro: posts the ante 50
dakota-xx: posts the ante 50
trindo: posts small blind 200
vezir3000: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to dakota-xx [9s 9h]
encountah: folds
AKDEL: folds
p5an: folds
going4pro: folds
dakota-xx: raises 600 to 1000
kkleise13: folds
DaveBuffalo: folds
trindo: folds
vezir3000: calls 600
*** FLOP *** [7s 8s Kh]
vezir3000: checks
dakota-xx: bets 1200
vezir3000: calls 1200
*** TURN *** [7s 8s Kh] [Kc]
vezir3000: checks
dakota-xx: bets 7149 and is all-in
vezir3000: calls 7149
*** RIVER *** [7s 8s Kh Kc] [6s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
vezir3000: shows [8d Jc] (two pair, Kings and Eights)
dakota-xx: shows [9s 9h] (two pair, Kings and Nines)
dakota-xx collected 19348 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 19348 | Rake 0
Board [7s 8s Kh Kc 6s]
Seat 1: kkleise13 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: DaveBuffalo (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: trindo (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: vezir3000 (big blind) showed [8d Jc] and lost with two pair, Kings and Eights
Seat 5: encountah folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: AKDEL folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: p5an folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: going4pro folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: dakota-xx showed [9s 9h] and won (19348) with two pair, Kings and Nines


Weeeeeeeeeeeeee!

 

[pantin007]

debi, can u convert ur hands plz

 

[Debi]

Will think about it lol. I find these easier to read really. I know I am in the minority.