$50 NLHE MTT Turbo: $50 NLHE MTT Turbo: Questionable Shove - Top 3 get paid

What should I have done?

  • Shove

    Votes: 2 50.0%
  • Call

    Votes: 2 50.0%
  • Fold

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    4
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CrazyMofo107

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replay.pppoker.net/game_record_publish/Frame/rls_20201204/index.html?shareKey=5bf79330-b127-ca76-0916-d1ed9df7fc8b&lan=en

Payouts - 450 - 270 - 180

This was a hand in an online home game that created quite of a bit of discussion. I'm curious to hear other opinions when taken at face value. Obviously I'm the one who shoved but I felt my only two options were either shove or call. All the players are not so good amateurs and the villain is probably 2nd best in the home game to me. He's a little more aggressive than the remaining players.

Calling felt weak because Id likely have to call check fold the majority of the time. And even if I get a piece I have to play the hand oop with only about 14 bb left. Considering he's probably opening wide on the button 6 handed I figured hes only calling with maybe the top like 6% of his range 88+ AQ+. And even if he does call there's small chance I win. The goal was obviously for him to fold, but I ran into it. Think this is still a +EV play long run but what do I know.

Few things to note: I generally don't care about the limping into the money and getting 3rd, I play to win and doesn't matter to me if I dont make the money. Folding to me was never an option. Call check folding is an option, but I didn't feel like being left with 14-bb 6 handed and wasting a good opportunity.

Let me know what you think!
Thanks!
 
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Sidetracked

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I'd feel better about your shove if he had opened smaller on the button. 3 X, particularly with the weaker player pool that your mentioned, will often indicate strength.
 
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fundiver199

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Even though it was 3 left to the money, there was a bit of an ICM situation here with you being the third largest stack, and someone running on fumes and very likely to bust in the near future. And for that reason I do probably lean towards just calling his raise rather than jamming against the chip leader, and especially if you feel, you had a skill edge on the field.

Sure its never fun to defend our blinds by calling, because we are out of position and without initiative. But defending blinds is part of the game and a situation, which we need to learn to play well. In this spot maybe you would have paid a flop C-bet, but with the monotone board and an overcard to your pair, getting away on the turn would certainly be possible.

I dont think, jamming is terrible though. It was a BTN open, so we cant put him on the nuts, just because he opened a hand. And therefore my second choise after calling would certainly be to jam. I would never fold this hand, because then you are not defending your blinds anywhere near enough. So to some extend it was just a little bit unlucky, that you ran into the top of his range :)
 
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CrazyMofo107

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I'd feel better about your shove if he had opened smaller on the button. 3 X, particularly with the weaker player pool that your mentioned, will often indicate strength.

Thanks for taking a look at it and replying. I guess I hadn't realized the 3x meant strength rather I thought it was just more ignorance on adjusting their opening size later in a tournament. Something I'll be paying more attention to in the future. Thank you!
 
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CrazyMofo107

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Even though it was 3 left to the money, there was a bit of an ICM situation here with you being the third largest stack, and someone running on fumes and very likely to bust in the near future. And for that reason I do probably lean towards just calling his raise rather than jamming against the chip leader, and especially if you feel, you had a skill edge on the field.

Sure its never fun to defend our blinds by calling, because we are out of position and without initiative. But defending blinds is part of the game and a situation, which we need to learn to play well. In this spot maybe you would have paid a flop C-bet, but with the monotone board and an overcard to your pair, getting away on the turn would certainly be possible.

I dont think, jamming is terrible though. It was a BTN open, so we cant put him on the nuts, just because he opened a hand. And therefore my second choise after calling would certainly be to jam. I would never fold this hand, because then you are not defending your blinds anywhere near enough. So to some extend it was just a little bit unlucky, that you ran into the top of his range :)

Thanks for taking a look at it and taking the time to reply. I definitely need to start taking on spots like these that make me feel uncomfortable. I think maybe I get stubborn and just go with "well if I run into, I can walk away knowing I made the right +EV play long term" so I end up shoving in these spots more often than not. And I think shoving is? I dont know, the solvers are too complex for me and I couldnt figure out how to plug this hand into one to find out for sure. Interested to see what that would say.

I'm glad you agree though that folding is never an option. I just hate the idea of being "crippled" after calling and losing the hand. Maybe I'm too pessimistic. But it does bother me flatting for 12% of my stack when the odds and initiative are not in my favor, it feels like more of a gamble to me trying to hit a flop and/or out play him oop vs. shoving and trying to get him to fold in that spot. I may be greatly overlooking the value had in just still being in the tournament though. I just get anxious around 15bb and start looking for opportunities to shove regardless of what the other stacks the other players have. I don't really start focusing on ICM and the money implications until there are 4 left really.

Thinking out loud but greatly appreciate the analysis/criticism!
 
Poker Orifice

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Personally, When posting a HH for feedback, I'd consider just writing out all of the particulars and then LEAVE it at the Hero's point to act. (point of decision).
In this case,
size of stacks of all players.
Size of blinds.
Payouts.
player read(s)/info. ... & a bit of info. about the game/field

Villain raises otb 3x
SB folds
Hero???

Post results after.
 
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CrazyMofo107

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Personally, When posting a HH for feedback, I'd consider just writing out all of the particulars and then LEAVE it at the Hero's point to act. (point of decision).
In this case,
size of stacks of all players.
Size of blinds.
Payouts.
player read(s)/info. ... & a bit of info. about the game/field

Villain raises otb 3x
SB folds
Hero???

Post results after.

Agree yes, the result of the hand wasn't meant to be influential. It was just easier to copy/paste the link. Lazy on my part. Will keep this in mind for any future posts though.
 
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Sidetracked

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Thanks for taking a look at it and replying. I guess I hadn't realized the 3x meant strength rather I thought it was just more ignorance on adjusting their opening size later in a tournament. Something I'll be paying more attention to in the future. Thank you!


Most good tournament players will open to 2 or 2.5 X on the button. More inexperienced players will make their raise size proportionate to the strength of their hand.
 
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chakalaka

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It's home game, so you should know your opponents than usually at poker table. Do you know something more about his range when he opens 3X? Mostly time is top range.
 
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CrazyMofo107

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It's home game, so you should know your opponents than usually at poker table. Do you know something more about his range when he opens 3X? Mostly time is top range.

No I think if I did it definitely could change the decision. I think I said in the post he's one of the better players in the league so I fully expected him to open pretty wide there on the button 6 handed, but maybe I gave him too much credit as a "good player" and thought he was just trying to buy it with 3x as opposed to 2-2.5x. Thanks for taking a look!
 
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