£50 NLHE MTT: QQ as preflop aggressor in multiway pot facing donk bet on semi-wet board

[quant1986]

£50 NLHE MTT: QQ as preflop aggressor in multiway pot facing donk bet on semi-wet board

Early stage live MTT, full ring, rebuy available

UTG:~100BB, tricky
UTG+2 (Hero): ~120BB
MP+1: ~100BB, loose
CO: ~100BB, no info, men in 50s-60s
SB: ~100BB

UTG limped, UTG+2 raised to 4BB with Q♣Q♠,MP+1 called, CO called, SB called,
UTG called.

Flop: (21BB, 5 palyers)
J♦8♦6♥

SB bet 7BB, UTG folded, UTG+2 raised to 22BB, MP+1 called, CO folded,
SB raised to all in. UTG+2 ?

 

[jrx1908]

How Early Stage and Rebuy tournament, perhaps the call is good. But very tricky to get the SB in a range that hand. If he draws excellent as 9dTd, QdTd, or Axdd, Kxdd, you have a fair, but the game is very deep.

If you do not think about doing Rebuy and play solid, the fold is a good way, in my opinion this scenario.

 

[Luvepoker]

The one thing I have seen in live games is when they start betting big they usually have it. The guy bet out and saw your 3 bet and a call of the bet and then shoved all in, I would not be happy about it but I would have to fold here. Yes its a re-buy but this is also not a $1.00 event. They best you can hope for here is the other guy calls so you can see what they have so you can play better against them in the future. Its really stinks to fold here but I fold and wont not get to worried about it but would watch this guy carefully in the future.

 

[Madsaac]

Yeah I agree its a fold

 

[liuouhgkres]

It depends on the type of a player. If villain is an agressive player the I think call is good, since you don't block his draws. But by default it should be fold.

 

[badameli]

You made a tactical error in raising the donk bet off the flop.


Count the bets: Pre flop: 21 BB's in the pot.
Flop: 7BB's added, you add 22BB's, MP+1 adds 22BB's = 72BB
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Your Stack: 120-22-4=94BB left
Tricky Opponents Stack: 100-7-4=89BB's + can call 15 leaving him with 74. Now - with 72BB in the pot - is it worth a shove if you have a big draw and can push your opponent off the hand? With 74BB left can you shove a player off his hand?
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With a big draw (because you bet 4BB's pre flop from early position - if he knows you're either still drawing or have only made a pair)... he can push and make it not worth it for you to call.
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You don't raise and allow a player to go all in if you aren't willing to call.
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You have 2 choices - call his 7BB, if he cracks your Q's on the turn - so be it - better he does that and you lose 7 than you have put another 15 in - a 15 that he totally has pot odds to call. OR push all in - I don't like this play because of the variance. He doesn't even care if you hit a set, he's seeing 2 cards to get to his made hand.
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Say he has 97d or 57d, JTd, 86, Axd, KQd, 76d, 56d. Any of those play that way. Or just a strong play early tournament with a willingness to rebut.

 

[quant1986]

You made a tactical error in raising the donk bet off the flop.


Count the bets: Pre flop: 21 BB's in the pot.
Flop: 7BB's added, you add 22BB's, MP+1 adds 22BB's = 72BB
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Your Stack: 120-22-4=94BB left
Tricky Opponents Stack: 100-7-4=89BB's + can call 15 leaving him with 74. Now - with 72BB in the pot - is it worth a shove if you have a big draw and can push your opponent off the hand? With 74BB left can you shove a player off his hand?
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With a big draw (because you bet 4BB's pre flop from early position - if he knows you're either still drawing or have only made a pair)... he can push and make it not worth it for you to call.
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You don't raise and allow a player to go all in if you aren't willing to call.
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You have 2 choices - call his 7BB, if he cracks your Q's on the turn - so be it - better he does that and you lose 7 than you have put another 15 in - a 15 that he totally has pot odds to call. OR push all in - I don't like this play because of the variance. He doesn't even care if you hit a set, he's seeing 2 cards to get to his made hand.
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Say he has 97d or 57d, JTd, 86, Axd, KQd, 76d, 56d. Any of those play that way. Or just a strong play early tournament with a willingness to rebut.

If I instead call the donk bet, it provides better odds for MP+1 and CO to call with any draws and I could be up against multiple draws but I may consider this line if I have a Qd.

By raising on the flop, I may get MP+1, CO to fold some weaker aces and kings.
Also I don't expect MP+1 to cold call that often even he is a loose player as he is facing EP uncapped range and also 2 players acting behind.

I doubt SB would have that many diamond draws in his shove range as it could be dominated by Adxd.

 

[ddg373]

I'm thinking A/J and another PP might have hit trips, not giving up an over pair to a most likely draw.

 

[badameli]

If I instead call the donk bet, it provides better odds for MP+1 and CO to call with any draws and I could be up against multiple draws but I may consider this line if I have a Qd.

By raising on the flop, I may get MP+1, CO to fold some weaker aces and kings.
Also I don't expect MP+1 to cold call that often even he is a loose player as he is facing EP uncapped range and also 2 players acting behind.

I doubt SB would have that many diamond draws in his shove range as it could be dominated by Adxd.

You’re not forcing a flush or open ended st8 draw with your 22 BB bet anyways. There’s 50 BB in the pot and a good chance they will have multiple callers. The st8 is only folding because he’s counting 6 outs not 8. Those guys are 1/3 to hit st8 and 1/2 to hit flush with an over. You can try pushing first but I think that’s a really bad play. Take the card and then move. Yes there’s risk but you can still bet 4th street hard. Also, you are only putting in 7 bets that gives you 4-1 if those guys both call.

Note that mp1 called your 22. I’d rather be 40% to win 4-1 than 50% for 3-2 at best and having to risk 3x as many chips to throw my opponent off his hand.

 

[TDTODDY]

It's hard to give up the over pair, but if you like cashing it's your only option. The shove for all of it might be 2 pair, but the flat call behind you has got to be disconcerting. Rebuys also bring out the gunslingers, they are apt to call w/ str8 or flush possibilities. Fold.

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

as played I think I fold. esp when the MP1 cold calls a flop raise? that's a strong strong play. Then after seeing that the SB goes all in anyways? I'm expecting to see set over set or set vs huge combo draw.

I don't like your flop raise its a very multiway pot. you're not going to fold out any better hands and so you're playing with fire because a lot of things either already beat you or have a ton of equity against you.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

While I agree with the reasoning that we don't want to really be up against multiple draws, I don't think it follows that we should be raising the donk bet.

The primary issue with this hand is that it's just really not "our board" as the preflop raiser. The board favors the preflop callers very heavily. So while we raise in the name of charging the draws, most draws perform QUITE well against our hand, and the hands that have us beat have us absolutely crushed. It makes raising QQ (particularly black QQ) here less than ideal imo.

Calling is absolutely fine bc we're well ahead of a lead range here, but when we raise we often blast out any weak top pairs, while still having draws continue, along with anything better than one pair.

As played with the flop raise, I THINK I like a fold to the jam, bc people generally don't fastplay draws enough, especially for a flop lead/3bet for his stack earlyish in a tournament.

 

[quant1986]

Thanks everyone for the comments. When reviewing this hand, I know I am almost certain behind SB donk-bet-shove range. If MP+1 was a tight player, I would give more credit to the flop-raise call and folded this hand.


As played I made a bad call to SB jam. MP+1 folded and SB showed J8s.

I will study whether to raise similar flops against 4 players with only overpair.