$5 NLHE STT: Should A9 IP triple barrel Kh4s4dTcQh board?

[PrinceJigger]

Hi everyone,

This is my first time posting a HA question so I hope I followed all the rules.

I was hoping to get some expert advice on how I played this hand postflop. The main question I have is should I fire a third barrel on the river and if so, how much? I'm also wondering if I should have played the flop or the turn differently.

Villain was a complete unknown. This was hand #17 of a 6-max SNG. Villain seemed tight-ish and my image was also tight (I was pretty card dead up until this hand).

Here is the replay: https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/9arw2fv

Thanks a lot in advance!

 

[fundiver199]

His exact hand would probably have folded, but I dont think, you should have taken this hand any further. In fact I probably check back already on the turn, since you picked up no additional equity, and your hand has at least a little bit of showdown value. You could still be ahead here of mainly some worse A high, so your hand is a decent candidate for trying to get to a cheap showdown. Or of course spike a pair on the river. If I bet the turn, I go for a larger size like half pot. You are targeting hands like the exact one, he had, so failing to get the fold is a clear sign, you went to small.

 

[Collin Moshman]

Hi everyone,

This is my first time posting a HA question so I hope I followed all the rules.

I was hoping to get some expert advice on how I played this hand postflop. The main question I have is should I fire a third barrel on the river and if so, how much? I'm also wondering if I should have played the flop or the turn differently.

Villain was a complete unknown. This was hand #17 of a 6-max SNG. Villain seemed tight-ish and my image was also tight (I was pretty card dead up until this hand).

Here is the replay: https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/9arw2fv

Thanks a lot in advance!

Interesting hand!

Typically if an opponent calls a bet on a dry flop, you want a compelling reason to continue firing. Here there's somewhat the opposite -- we have ace-high giving us some showdown value and making us less incentivized to get him off his hand. If he's calling with a hand like Q9s giving him queen-high and a couple of backdoor draws, we're ahead.

So I agree with Fundiver on checking back turn. I would often check back flop as well, but betting for equity denial (folding out hands that can pair and have around 25% equity against us) is definitely reasonable.

 

[fundiver199]

Just want to add, that it would really suck to get check-raised and have to fold, what is the best hand a decent amount of the time. And we obviously can not call and play for stacks with A high and no draw. So against tough opponents checking back the flop is an attractive option, because it takes the check-raise out of their arsenal. But most players in 5$ SnGs are pretty passive, and then I am ok with the small C-bet.

 

[jaworek1405]

Hello, I think that you should bet more on the flop and sometimes more on the turn. The flop seems very safe, no draws to flush and no draws to straight, so we should bet on the flop. I think that this small bet on the flop you can't force him hand to fold his pocket pair, because pocket pair on this flop is usually the best hand. I think if we play more on the flop and on the turn sometimes we can force him to fold, because the turn card is bad card for pocket 77. So if you want play two bets on the flop and on the turn IMO you should bet more, about 50% of the pot, but it is a little risky move, because we have shy of 30bb in stack on 4max table. As played on the river I give up our ace high. GL

 

[PrinceJigger]

His exact hand would probably have folded, but I dont think, you should have taken this hand any further. In fact I probably check back already on the turn, since you picked up no additional equity, and your hand has at least a little bit of showdown value. You could still be ahead here of mainly some worse A high, so your hand is a decent candidate for trying to get to a cheap showdown. Or of course spike a pair on the river. If I bet the turn, I go for a larger size like half pot. You are targeting hands like the exact one, he had, so failing to get the fold is a clear sign, you went to small.

Thanks a lot, fundiver!

The more I think about it, the more I don't like my bet sizing on the turn. Going forward, I will take your advice and either check behind on the turn or bet half the pot.

 

[PrinceJigger]

Interesting hand!

Typically if an opponent calls a bet on a dry flop, you want a compelling reason to continue firing. Here there's somewhat the opposite -- we have ace-high giving us some showdown value and making us less incentivized to get him off his hand. If he's calling with a hand like Q9s giving him queen-high and a couple of backdoor draws, we're ahead.

So I agree with Fundiver on checking back turn. I would often check back flop as well, but betting for equity denial (folding out hands that can pair and have around 25% equity against us) is definitely reasonable.

Thanks a lot, Collin!

The thought of checking on this particular flop didn't even cross my mind. As I mentioned, I was pretty card dead up until this point so maybe I was being impatient and trying too hard to use my tight image to rep a K. I will definitely mix in some checks on the flop in the future.

 

[PrinceJigger]

Just want to add, that it would really suck to get check-raised and have to fold, what is the best hand a decent amount of the time. And we obviously can not call and play for stacks with A high and no draw. So against tough opponents checking back the flop is an attractive option, because it takes the check-raise out of their arsenal. But most players in 5$ SnGs are pretty passive, and then I am ok with the small C-bet.

I agree. From my experience in $5 SNGs, opponents generally aren't tricky enough to check-raise the flop unless it's for value. That's why I'm usually not concerned about check-raises on these types of dry flops.

 

[fundiver199]

I agree. From my experience in $5 SNGs, opponents generally aren't tricky enough to check-raise the flop unless it's for value. That's why I'm usually not concerned about check-raises on these types of dry flops.

At similar buy-in MTTs I have often felt, I was getting pushed around, when I got check-raised on a paired flop like this. I mean, did he really call with a 4 in his hand, probably not. So maybe 3 times I have taken it to the felt and put in the 3-bet (jam) with a hand like this. And each time I have gotten snapped off by trips and felt really stupid, when I saw my 1% equity. So just from this limited sample I agree, that micro stakes players are not bluffing much in spots like this. At least not in tournaments. Cash games is a somewhat different story.

 

[liuouhgkres]

Hi everyone,

This is my first time posting a HA question so I hope I followed all the rules.

I was hoping to get some expert advice on how I played this hand postflop. The main question I have is should I fire a third barrel on the river and if so, how much? I'm also wondering if I should have played the flop or the turn differently.

Villain was a complete unknown. This was hand #17 of a 6-max SNG. Villain seemed tight-ish and my image was also tight (I was pretty card dead up until this hand).

Here is the replay: https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/9arw2fv

Thanks a lot in advance!

FLOP. I really like flop sizing. This board is very good for your range and you should range bet with a small sizing. Well played.

TURN. Turn card is good for your range, because you pick up additional sets and two pairs, like KT and TT. Since villain didn't check raise you have nuts advantage, but because you are supposed bet range on the flop, you have a lot of trash in your range too. Basically, what does it mean is that you should bet heavy polarized range on the turn. Pot bet with KQ+ and 4x hands, mix in bluffs with no showdown value. You have a lot of straight draws to use as a bluff: QJ, Q9, J9. Also, you can use weakest cc hands, like 98cc-97cc, 87cc, 86cc, 76cc... Also, weakest Ax hands are good as a bluff too, because of blockers. like A5 blocks A4 and 54. You have enough good bluffs here. With A9, you don't want to bet, because you have a showdown value and even if you are behind, you can catch an A or 9 on the river. Your sizing is really bad too. Villain has a lot of Kx and pocket pairs. These hands won't fold to your one third sizing. So, in short, on the turn, you used bad hand to bet with bad sizing. Poorly played.

RIVER: One the river you still have little bit of a showdown value, because villain can have missed straight draws. Check back is correct. Well played.

 

[eetenor]

Hi everyone,

This is my first time posting a HA question so I hope I followed all the rules.

I was hoping to get some expert advice on how I played this hand postflop. The main question I have is should I fire a third barrel on the river and if so, how much? I'm also wondering if I should have played the flop or the turn differently.

Villain was a complete unknown. This was hand #17 of a 6-max SNG. Villain seemed tight-ish and my image was also tight (I was pretty card dead up until this hand).

Here is the replay: https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/9arw2fv

Thanks a lot in advance!

Thank U 4 Posting

Watching replayer without seeing the reveal.

So you raise 2.5x tight BB calls what is the range you give the BB preflop?

K44 flop- 0 draws what range does a tight player call your first bet?
What was your plan based on your sizing?
Does that plan work with this player when they call flop?

K4410
So we ask ourselves what does a tight player fold on the turn on such a static board?
most Ax hands tie you now. Will this V fold 99-22?

K4410Q
SPR 1.3 will this V fold Ax now or 66?
What does your player pool do in this spot after calling twice? How many players do you see folding rivers here? What hands are they folding?
How many players call your turn bet sizing with 66? If your V chase turns more often with 66 then should we not have bet larger on the turn to get more folds? If they fold that is.

Reveal
Ok V had 77. I was thinking 66 close but not perfect.

So we need to dive deep into what our V was thinking.

On the flop typical call as most of your V would be thinking you would bet small with misses. On the turn you bet small again this V thinks you have misses still. This is an important factor, We need to understand that this sizing does not protect our 2 barrel bluffs vs this V.

We want to know is the above common in our player pool. If so we are sizing wrong. Why, because when we have the K we are not getting enough value on flop and turn. This board is so static that we will only be getting 2 streets of value unless our V never fold.

If we know they will give us 2 streets we need to get more value from our made hands and we protect our bluffs with larger sizing so 50% flop gets called by 77 often vs this type of player. We then can put more pressure on V for stacks with our turn bet.
The question is does you player pool feel pressure on the turn? Are your V calling with under pairs on turns? Are your fellow players shoving rivers for pressure or just with the nuts? Does your player pool check rivers to often that this V believes they will get to showdown on most rivers?

Just some points to help you think about ranges sizing and player pool tendencies.

Hope this helps

 

[PrinceJigger]

FLOP. I really like flop sizing. This board is very good for your range and you should range bet with a small sizing. Well played.

TURN. Turn card is good for your range, because you pick up additional sets and two pairs, like KT and TT. Since villain didn't check raise you have nuts advantage, but because you are supposed bet range on the flop, you have a lot of trash in your range too. Basically, what does it mean is that you should bet heavy polarized range on the turn. Pot bet with KQ+ and 4x hands, mix in bluffs with no showdown value. You have a lot of straight draws to use as a bluff: QJ, Q9, J9. Also, you can use weakest cc hands, like 98cc-97cc, 87cc, 86cc, 76cc... Also, weakest Ax hands are good as a bluff too, because of blockers. like A5 blocks A4 and 54. You have enough good bluffs here. With A9, you don't want to bet, because you have a showdown value and even if you are behind, you can catch an A or 9 on the river. Your sizing is really bad too. Villain has a lot of Kx and pocket pairs. These hands won't fold to your one third sizing. So, in short, on the turn, you used bad hand to bet with bad sizing. Poorly played.

RIVER: One the river you still have little bit of a showdown value, because villain can have missed straight draws. Check back is correct. Well played.

Thanks a lot for the in-depth analysis, liuouhgkres! I like your suggestion of bluffing with A5. That's something that I would have never thought of.

 

[PrinceJigger]

Thank U 4 Posting

Watching replayer without seeing the reveal.

So you raise 2.5x tight BB calls what is the range you give the BB preflop?

K44 flop- 0 draws what range does a tight player call your first bet?
What was your plan based on your sizing?
Does that plan work with this player when they call flop?

K4410
So we ask ourselves what does a tight player fold on the turn on such a static board?
most Ax hands tie you now. Will this V fold 99-22?

K4410Q
SPR 1.3 will this V fold Ax now or 66?
What does your player pool do in this spot after calling twice? How many players do you see folding rivers here? What hands are they folding?
How many players call your turn bet sizing with 66? If your V chase turns more often with 66 then should we not have bet larger on the turn to get more folds? If they fold that is.

Reveal
Ok V had 77. I was thinking 66 close but not perfect.

So we need to dive deep into what our V was thinking.

On the flop typical call as most of your V would be thinking you would bet small with misses. On the turn you bet small again this V thinks you have misses still. This is an important factor, We need to understand that this sizing does not protect our 2 barrel bluffs vs this V.

We want to know is the above common in our player pool. If so we are sizing wrong. Why, because when we have the K we are not getting enough value on flop and turn. This board is so static that we will only be getting 2 streets of value unless our V never fold.

If we know they will give us 2 streets we need to get more value from our made hands and we protect our bluffs with larger sizing so 50% flop gets called by 77 often vs this type of player. We then can put more pressure on V for stacks with our turn bet.
The question is does you player pool feel pressure on the turn? Are your V calling with under pairs on turns? Are your fellow players shoving rivers for pressure or just with the nuts? Does your player pool check rivers to often that this V believes they will get to showdown on most rivers?

Just some points to help you think about ranges sizing and player pool tendencies.

Hope this helps

Thanks a lot, eetenor! You've given me a lot to think about.

I'll try to walk through my thought process from beginning to end.

Preflop: I raised 2.5x because 3x seemed unnecessary with 3 players left to act. 2x also seems too low given that all the stacks were still reasonably deep.

Flop: I'm putting my opponent on 99-22, AT-A2, KQ-K9, QJ-Q8, JT-J9, T9, T8, 98, 87, 76, 65, 54. On a flop this dry, I think c-betting 25-33% makes the most sense. Alternatively, I guess a check is fine too but I lean more towards aggression.

Turn: I chose my bet size for two reasons:
1) The turn completed the rainbow so I felt like the board was still a bit dry such that I don't need to bet that much. I thought maybe villain was nitty enough such that I could get away with only betting 30% pot and get villain to fold Q9, J9, 99-55, 33, 22. I now realize that a bigger bet would have been more likely to succeed.
2) I tried to represent AK, KK, KQ and make it look like I was luring my opponent. My mistake was underestimating how many unmade hands were still in my range.

River: By now, I thought the best I could hope for is a chop against A9, A8, etc. I thought about firing one last time to try to get T9, 99-55 to fold. I decided to shut it down because villain was still an unknown who has yet to have a showdown and I didn't know what they were capable of.

The player pool in $5 SNGs is pretty diverse. On one end of the spectrum, you have some sharp regs with good ROIs who are always the first to register to a table. On the other end of the spectrum, you have some very inexperienced players. Notice that this was only hand #17 and two players have already busted. The person who was sitting in Seat 1 got knocked out limping 82s UTG and then getting overaggressive with middle pair on the flop.

Hope that gives you an idea of what these games are like.

 

[eetenor]

Thanks a lot, eetenor! You've given me a lot to think about.

I'll try to walk through my thought process from beginning to end.

Preflop: I raised 2.5x because 3x seemed unnecessary with 3 players left to act. 2x also seems too low given that all the stacks were still reasonably deep.

Flop: I'm putting my opponent on 99-22, AT-A2, KQ-K9, QJ-Q8, JT-J9, T9, T8, 98, 87, 76, 65, 54. On a flop this dry, I think c-betting 25-33% makes the most sense. Alternatively, I guess a check is fine too but I lean more towards aggression.

Turn: I chose my bet size for two reasons:
1) The turn completed the rainbow so I felt like the board was still a bit dry such that I don't need to bet that much. I thought maybe villain was nitty enough such that I could get away with only betting 30% pot and get villain to fold Q9, J9, 99-55, 33, 22. I now realize that a bigger bet would have been more likely to succeed.
2) I tried to represent AK, KK, KQ and make it look like I was luring my opponent. My mistake was underestimating how many unmade hands were still in my range.

River: By now, I thought the best I could hope for is a chop against A9, A8, etc. I thought about firing one last time to try to get T9, 99-55 to fold. I decided to shut it down because villain was still an unknown who has yet to have a showdown and I didn't know what they were capable of.

The player pool in $5 SNGs is pretty diverse. On one end of the spectrum, you have some sharp regs with good ROIs who are always the first to register to a table. On the other end of the spectrum, you have some very inexperienced players. Notice that this was only hand #17 and two players have already busted. The person who was sitting in Seat 1 got knocked out limping 82s UTG and then getting overaggressive with middle pair on the flop.

Hope that gives you an idea of what these games are like.

Thank U 4 Responding

Great job diving deeper into the hand.

I asked what was your plan and you bet flop and turn representing a big hand. You believed at that time the V would give you credit for said hand.

We have to know that our flop sizing and turn sizing is a must river shove.
We do not abandon our plan as we were never going to get the top of this players range to fold so we shove river targeting the rest of the range.

This is of course based on your choice to represent the K.Once we decide on that course of action nothing occurred that would change our river play. In fact the Q helps us as many of our bluffs AJ QJ AQ QQ get there and the Q is another scare card for AX and 99-22 which we were targeting on the flop.

We would be shoving river vs this player pool with KK QQ AJ and an SPR of 1.5
Unless we knew our V had 0 calls but then we would not have small bet KK on K44 as we know that our V are only giving us 2 streets and we would be missing too much value. So we would never be small bet bluffing K44 either if we were balanced but do we need to be balanced?
Can we bet bigger for value and smaller with bluffs often yes.

Most V on this run out should be folding most of their range 99-22 Ax should be a fold on this river for any bet size. Unless you see calls happening in your player pool you should be confident in this action.
The player pool is always the all important factor here. What mistakes are they making?
Call Call Fold? Call Fold? Call All?

Remember as well the important factor is we will lose this hand while bluffing. That should not stop us from bluffing. We should not change our plan in a spot like this when we were targeting Ax 99-22 and believed they would fold at some point. Our plan 2 streets small sizing was shove river, the Q helps us. Having 1.5 SPR helps us in our bluff if our V are not blind to pot odds. Is your player pool blind to pot odds? Knowing this will enable you to not make pot odds based bluffs.

Yes some calling stations will have made Q pair on the river and we lose but that is ok. You are now the wild player who does not know what we are doing and you can max value your hands now. You can shove for 3x pot on rivers and get calls from 77 for instance.

When we have a plan on the flop we need to know what are plan looks like on all streets.
Other players mentioned other strategies, you may be more comfortable playing a less aggressive style. The key is to know you cannot pull the trigger on the river and thereby not take an action on the flop that requires it.

For your reference I am specifically talking about this hand K44 flop the same does not apply to say Q44 or J44 or 544 We must know there is a difference on each board and change our strategy slightly.

Hope this helps

 

[Hujiko]

On the flop a range bet of 1/3 pot is ok as the K favors your range and it is unlikely villain has a 4 in his range given the stack depths.
The turn card is basically a brick as it not likely to hit any of you. So you can go either way trying to get him to fold his most likely holding a pair or a K bad kicker hand (he did not raise preflop so I guess AK and KQ are not a big part of his range). In order to get folds from these you need to size up and make it look like you have AK and are trying to get all the money in the middle by the river. So would either raise to like 250 and if villain calls be willing to put the pressure on him by going all-in. Or just check back on the turn and take a free card.

 

[UkoChebuko]

In this hand, OTF, when you bet, your target are pocket pairs, AT-AQ. I think vs this 2.5x raise, your stack, your position, he will shove very often with AJo+, ATs+. Maybe ATo is a call. Just maybe...Pocket pairs. Again. You must expect shove. With this hands. In this situation.
OTF I will choice check-back. And will go in bluff catching "mode". The turn card is bad, I will just give up.
As played, your bets are too small. Weak. Looks cheaper, but it is not (for you). OTT, yes, you must bet even at this bad card. Because this is your plan. OTR again...Bet. Think about your target. With this size, OTR you must bet again. If you use bigger size OTF, you can bet only one time. If you use "normal size", then you must bet two times. If you use small, three times. Or just check-back. Ot bet OTT. Or again check-back. I will choice only check-check with plan to call and catch a bluff ( to make a profitable call). But the board is bad for this (OTT, OTR).