$5 NLHE MTT: jamming A8 suited on button with ICM considerations

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BigXerxes

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Final 6 with payouts roughly as follow

6th - $110
5th - $160
4th - $250
3rd - $410
2nd - $660
1st - $1000
UTG Dyldo347 6BBs - Fold
HiJack Jonin702 16BBs - Fold
Cutoff CatTacos 42BBs - Fold
Hero on Button 14BB's with As8s - Jam all in
SB UTGHEro 15BB's - Call
BB Paulie p 44 BBs - Fold

SB has KK and wins pot

not too bummed with finishing 6th instead of 5th so I feel pretty good about this jam. especially since BB is calling jams pretty wide so I thought they might call me with something worse and I could get a nice double up. What does everyone else think?
 
puzzlefish

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How about finishing third? I know Axs looks pretty to shove with into the big stack, but just don't do it. Next time you are in this situation think about this post. Do not shove into BB/SB with a pretty looking hand.
 
rock0001

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maybe a 3bb raise would be better in this scenario considering utg had only 6bb left and you are on the button position. i personally dont dislike the shove though..
 
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daniel888

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I think it's correct with jamming A8s in this situation. In fact, you have a very good position and A2s+ is enough to jam here.
 
puzzlefish

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I think it's correct with jamming A8s in this situation. In fact, you have a very good position and A2s+ is enough to jam here.
You sure about that? Considering ICM?
 
ZenGreen

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Shove looks fine, just sucks sb woke up. You got the spot, you gotta take it. and Im not stop and going here or anything funny. No way Im letting sb or bb realize any equity. Shove of fold GOOD SHOVE
 
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fundiver199

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This is a standard jam, and its not even all that close. ICMizer has Hero jamming 28% of hands, which include all suited aces. This is not a spot, where Hero wants to do anything other than fold or jam, because if Hero make a small raise like a min-raise, then he just sets himself up to be bullied by the big stack. If Hero min-raise, then the NASH equilibrium only allow him to play 20% of hands, which does not include A8s. So definitely the correct decision made by Hero here, and the fact, someone woke up with KK, is just bad luck. Taking on spots like this, while others try to fold their way to a payjump, is how you win poker tournaments :)
 
mervin88

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jam all day everyday because u have fold equity and winning all the way should be the goal

unlucky someone in the blinds woke up with a hand but most of the time it will get thru and sometimes as you said you bb will call you light
 
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fundiver199

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especially since BB is calling jams pretty wide so I thought they might call me with something worse and I could get a nice double up.

Actually with A8s specifically you are kind of indifferent to, what BB does. The NASH equilibrium has him calling 12% af hands, and if instead he call say 25% of hands, you will bust more often, which is bad, but you will also have more equity when called. And the effect of these two opposing factors is, that the EV remain essentially the same. However if you had a hand like a suited wheel ace or a small pair, then him calling to much makes it a fold.
 
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BigXerxes

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Ok thank you all for the confirmation this was a good jam. I thought so too. I was sure A9 suited and A10o would have to be a jam so I figure A8s is a jam too :) unlucky as others have said.

As far as BB goes he was really a wildcard so not sure he is over calling here or not. He got tilted early on the final table and made some absurd plays but I think he had settled down by this point.
 
tazer

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Even considering the ICM its a jam? These spots are tough for me at times. What it looks like to me is that UTG will be getting jammed on twice in the next two hands. They either call and double/lose or fold to 4.5BB now considering blind levels that could be smaller. It looks to be a significant pay jump % wise. I feel like the shove is fine but would the short stack situation cause any difference? Plus BB wise 3,4,5 are essentially the same place. SB may jam if you don't with BB calling. To me just seems like too many other outcomes could happen to benefit you from a ladders standpoint.

I'm not saying its wrong to jam I am just real curious about the ICM as it is something I am trying to get a better grasp of the concept in those spots.
 
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BigXerxes

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Even considering the ICM its a jam? These spots are tough for me at times. What it looks like to me is that UTG will be getting jammed on twice in the next two hands. They either call and double/lose or fold to 4.5BB now considering blind levels that could be smaller. It looks to be a significant pay jump % wise. I feel like the shove is fine but would the short stack situation cause any difference? Plus BB wise 3,4,5 are essentially the same place. SB may jam if you don't with BB calling. To me just seems like too many other outcomes could happen to benefit you from a ladders standpoint.

I'm not saying its wrong to jam I am just real curious about the ICM as it is something I am trying to get a better grasp of the concept in those spots.



It is really just a $50 pay jump from 6th to 5th or 10 buy ins. From 6th to 1st is a $850 pay jump or 180 buy ins. So we are trying to set ourselves up for the win. I think folding is fine but is really a move trying to finish 3rd or 4th. Which is not a guarantee.

Imagine 6 bb stack has QQ next hand and we have ak. We get all in with 17bbs now instead of 14 and still have 11 when we lose the flip instead of 8 if we don’t jam this hand (this is assuming the jam got through).

However let’s say we’re already in 3rd place with players in places 4-6 all having six bb stacks. And the two big stacks are in the blinds. Then it would be a fold as we have more players likely to bust soon. Hope this helps :)
 
tazer

tazer

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It is really just a $50 pay jump from 6th to 5th or 10 buy ins. From 6th to 1st is a $850 pay jump or 180 buy ins. So we are trying to set ourselves up for the win. I think folding is fine but is really a move trying to finish 3rd or 4th. Which is not a guarantee.

Imagine 6 bb stack has QQ next hand and we have ak. We get all in with 17bbs now instead of 14 and still have 11 when we lose the flip instead of 8 if we don’t jam this hand (this is assuming the jam got through).

However let’s say we’re already in 3rd place with players in places 4-6 all having six bb stacks. And the two big stacks are in the blinds. Then it would be a fold as we have more players likely to bust soon. Hope this helps :)

Yes that does help alot, winning that hand does set you up much better to make a run for the win. I guess my small account would view that as a huge pay jump lol. Good luck out there.
 
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