$5 NLHE MTT: I punished the limper and got commited pls help me!

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brunochano

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https://r.supremapoker.net/?t=ndnce257002pt

Hi guys do you think I could have folded flop? Or even turn?

1 Can anyone help me with the count of direct and indirect odds with these respective stack sizes?
2 I just don't know where to begin should I think in terms of SPR or odds in a spot like this?
3 What is my checking range at this flop? Please anyone help me doing it at equilab? I get completely lost when I punish a limper and then after he realize his equity I go to a postflop like this...
4 Now thinking with my buttons I would guess this turn is a shove or fold right? I have 1:4 odds counting with his stack wich is the same odds of my hand ( 11 outs x 2 = 22% or 1:4) after calling flop and loosing completely the control of the pot size is it break even to call? This equity I mentioned is probably less if we consider he have at least one pair in his hand right? How do I discount it and get the clear number?
 
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fundiver199

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Preflop
Isolating the limper is ok. But if you are uncomfortable and unsure about playing postflop out of position in a situation like this, then what does the raise really do? It often knocks BB out of the pot, which ok thats cool, but apart from that it is kind of just helping the limper to build the pot, when he has position. So especially if you are not super comfortable postflop, maybe just isolate, when you have position, and complete from SB with hands like KJs.

Flop
C-betting the flop is fine, but when he raise, I would just be done with the hand. Yes its a very small sizing, and you are getting great pot odds, but you only have K high and some backdoors. Also if I expected him to raise a lot, I prefer to just check the flop with a hand like this, and maybe not even isolate in the first place.

Turn
You picked up an OESD, and now he bet half pot, which commits him to the pot, since he already put in more than half his stack. First of all shoving here makes no sense, since you are definitely behind when called, and its also very unlikely, there is any fold equity. So the decision is only between calling and folding.

You can estimate your equity off the table by plugging in your hand, the board and his presumed range in Equilab. I did, and depending on my assumptions about his range, its somewhere around 20-22%. You are getting 3:1, so you need 25% equity to break even. That mean, this is not a good call, unless you have implied odds on the river.

And to be fair, if you make a straight, you are likely to get his last 346k, so there are some implied odds. However there are also some reverse implied odds, when you improve on a K, because a decent amount of his range is two pair or better, or maybe he makes two pair with KQ. And once in a while Ah or 9h will make him a flush, in which case you also lose the extra 346k.

So for me I would want this call to be directly profitable without relying on implied odds. In tournaments we also need to factor in ICM, which mean, that chips won are less valuable than chips lost. And for that reason chasing after draws on the turn is often not a great play in tournaments. So all in all I would fold now, but more importantly I would have folded on the flop, so I would not even have to make this decision.

River
You missed, so easy check-fold.
 
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bb effective is 36bb

preflop is ok punish the limper you raise 4x all good

postflop pot 10.33bb

cbet 4bb which is fine villain re-raise to 8.33bb you called with your unlimited back doors all good

turn pot 27bb which is a tad bit of your opponent have you checked and he continued and you called

you miss and you fold it's fine nothing we can do, sometimes it's sucks that you have to fold the river,

for me, you played it fine, because your opponent gave you the odds/implied odds to call
 
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fundiver199

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cbet 4bb which is fine villain re-raise to 8.33bb you called with your unlimited back doors all good

For me this line and sizing look very much like "please give me action", especially considering the low SPR. So I will tend to discount bluffs and draws a lot. And if we are only against top pair or better, we only have something like 12-13% equity. And that is, if we get to see both cards, which often we dont. So as I said already, I think, its fine to just say "forget it" and fold, even getting around 5:1.

We have many better hands to defend with, and typically we dont need to worry about getting bluffed by someone taking a line like this. On the contrary we are exploiting him by slightly overfolding, when he is basically screaming from the mountain top, that he hit some kind of strong made hand.
 
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brunochano

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Thanks a lot for the answers! It helped me a lot!

I will consider your observation about not punishing the limper next time but I still like the line of making it so next time I will pay more attention on the post flop.

Do you think checking this flop with these backdoors is also a good play?
 
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fundiver199

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Do you think checking this flop with these backdoors is also a good play?

Yeah that can also be fine, especially if he someone, who will often check back, and who will often call, if you bet.
 
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A lot of ways to play this hand. I would just call KJs but raise KJo. As played, I think calling the raise is ok with a deep stack but you just have backdoor outs and one over. If I called the flop, I would either shove turn or most likely check/fold.
 
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Invested 4 bbs on pre, I would also do the 4bbs raise on flop.
But when someone pull the trigger and making such a naughty raise, its questioning our domination by a mile. Seeing the stack sizes, more likely he is able to take this party all-in, and in best case we pobably need a runner-runner to catch him. The limper could hit something here, set or straight-flush draw don't know, but as we dominated and he still push it back, I think the easiest and cheapest to fold here (on flop) the KJs.
 
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https://r.supremapoker.net/?t=ndnce257002pt

Hi guys do you think I could have folded flop? Or even turn?

1 Can anyone help me with the count of direct and indirect odds with these respective stack sizes?
2 I just don't know where to begin should I think in terms of SPR or odds in a spot like this?
3 What is my checking range at this flop? Please anyone help me doing it at equilab? I get completely lost when I punish a limper and then after he realize his equity I go to a postflop like this...
4 Now thinking with my buttons I would guess this turn is a shove or fold right? I have 1:4 odds counting with his stack wich is the same odds of my hand ( 11 outs x 2 = 22% or 1:4) after calling flop and loosing completely the control of the pot size is it break even to call? This equity I mentioned is probably less if we consider he have at least one pair in his hand right? How do I discount it and get the clear number?


Thank you for posting.

These stack sizes suggest late game strategy so ICM maybe the #1 consideration in your actions. Was this a Final Table or Final 2? If yes then 6 players have shorter stacks so when called we want to stack preserve as a number 1 goal.

Your #2 thought here is not punish the limper because they limped but because we think they will limp fold or they call but over-fold post flop. That is data we need to have. Why? We are out of position which allows the limper to limp call wide and play hit and miss on flops and they can also float and bluff turns if they are skilled.

One more point pot is 220- 90 to call so the V is getting 310/90=3.44 to 1 odds and they are IP this is not punishing a limp considering A2off suit has 53% equity. We can use larger sizing if we are targeting weaker V expecting them to fold more hands so 6x or more is ok to use here- this is exploit sizing but our V took an exploit action of limping.

#3 We want to have a range estimate of limp calls for this Villain or for the average V in our player pool in this spot specifically especially if it is an ICM spot and our V knows it is.
The V data might suggest to us that they were limp trapping AA or that they limp call broadway cards but not low connectors or the reverse. Also that they never limp KK-77 etc.
If we are late stages of tournament we want to be data mining previous hands for this data.


As you are having trouble with range estimates I will make another post giving an example of V range estimates based on this hand.

Hope this helps
:):)
 
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part 2 range estimates no V data

https://r.supremapoker.net/?t=ndnce257002pt

Hi guys do you think I could have folded flop? Or even turn?

1 Can anyone help me with the count of direct and indirect odds with these respective stack sizes?
2 I just don't know where to begin should I think in terms of SPR or odds in a spot like this?
3 What is my checking range at this flop? Please anyone help me doing it at equilab? I get completely lost when I punish a limper and then after he realize his equity I go to a postflop like this...
4 Now thinking with my buttons I would guess this turn is a shove or fold right? I have 1:4 odds counting with his stack wich is the same odds of my hand ( 11 outs x 2 = 22% or 1:4) after calling flop and loosing completely the control of the pot size is it break even to call? This equity I mentioned is probably less if we consider he have at least one pair in his hand right? How do I discount it and get the clear number?


Thank you for posting

Here is how begin to think about situational range estimates vs unknown V.

Our V limped off a 34bb effective stack we raised to 4bb leaving the V 30bb.

The stack size limp-call allows the V to have lots of draw type hands and AA crackers. AA is possible but KK-99 limp less likely. Often min raise or greater with those hands as an open. 77-22 could be a call.

Ok the flop is Qh7d6h

Our estimate suggests V can have some nut hands here and draws but not top pair plus flush draw hands of course.

So when the V min raises the flop we use action based on pot data to estimate ranges first. The min raise pot commits our V so that would suggest strength so they have sets 2 pair big draws in this spot all possible. Our range is very strong as well so again a standard V is not min raising hands worse than our own. K5hh has equal equity to us in this spot for example.

Put that range into equilab and you will see it is an easy fold on the flop.
As an example if the V was raising 3h4h they have 59% equity vs KJdd

A good rule of thumb for range estimates in game is to think what is the worst hand my V would take this action with?
A min raise that leads to SPR .9ish- that does not get many folds and does get shoved on by top of range by you. You have AA KK QQ AKhh AhQx AJhh that you can shove as a semi bluff etc etc etc.
What would the worst hand be that the V would do this with? Taking the time to think about that now will help you in game.

Standard V are not bluffing here for this size and are not thin Value raising a Q either for this size. If they have the Qx they cannot have the flush draw and you can shove that draw as you have fold equity vs a standard V in this spot with a weak Qx

So the above dissection enables us to have a standard V range estimate that suggests bet fold on flop is not much of a mistake if any.
This may not be 100% correct but it is the next step beyond being lost in this spot where you are now.

Just watched the last of the replay the turn is 100% fold. Either the V has us crushed or they are very good at poker either way they get to win on turn as played.
We want to stack protect on turn so we have to over-fold.

Hope this helps
:):)
 
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brunochano

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Thanks a lot for the answer guys I going to be a very active member of this forum this year. I'm doing my best to make poker my profession and I won't let this oportunity go away. I really appreciate your comments and attention. This forum and people here are so nice I don't even see this kind of behavior in the payed content I have!
Thank you for posting.

These stack sizes suggest late game strategy so ICM maybe the #1 consideration in your actions. Was this a Final Table or Final 2? If yes then 6 players have shorter stacks so when called we want to stack preserve as a number 1 goal.
No it was just close to the bubble 600 ITM and we were 650 left.


Your #2 thought here is not punish the limper because they limped but because we think they will limp fold or they call but over-fold post flop. That is data we need to have. Why? We are out of position which allows the limper to limp call wide and play hit and miss on flops and they can also float and bluff turns if they are skilled.

1.I loved this observation man makes things more clear to me.

2. I also enjoeyd the observation about 6x size pre flop it makes it much more clear to me because we were not with a big stack and I guess we want to make things simple about pre flop and flop so no runner runners here right?
 
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brunochano

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Thank you for posting

A good rule of thumb for range estimates in game is to think what is the worst hand my V would take this action with?
A min raise that leads to SPR .9ish- that does not get many folds and does get shoved on by top of range by you. You have AA KK QQ AKhh AhQx AJhh that you can shove as a semi bluff etc etc etc.
What would the worst hand be that the V would do this with? Taking the time to think about that now will help you in game.

Yeah man I'm going to save this comment here and I will remember it everytime I do equilab simulations! THanks again!
 
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brunochano

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Thank you for posting.



One more point pot is 220- 90 to call so the V is getting 310/90=3.44 to 1 odds and they are IP this is not punishing a limp considering A2off suit has 53% equity. We can use larger sizing if we are targeting weaker V expecting them to fold more hands so 6x or more is ok to use here- this is exploit sizing but our V took an exploit action of limping.


Man just one question 90/220 1:2,44 aind this number his odds? Because I thought that when you add his bet ( 310/90) to the pot size it becomes his equity needed to play the hand... Just a conceptual question:)
 
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fundiver199

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I also found the term "punishing the limper" a little peculiar. The more neutral term is "isolating the limper", and we certainly did not "punish" him, when the hand played out, like it did. As I said already, I think, it can be a totally valid strategy to just complete a hand like KJs from SB getting around 7:1 to see 3-way flop (unless BB raise) and then basically only put more chips in the pot, if we connect with the board. It avoid this situation, where we create a very low SPR, and we dont really have any profitable plan, unless the opponent fold to our C-bet :)
 
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brunochano

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I also found the term "punishing the limper" a little peculiar. The more neutral term is "isolating the limper", and we certainly did not "punish" him, when the hand played out, like it did. As I said already, I think, it can be a totally valid strategy to just complete a hand like KJs from SB getting around 7:1 to see 3-way flop (unless BB raise) and then basically only put more chips in the pot, if we connect with the board. It avoid this situation, where we create a very low SPR, and we dont really have any profitable plan, unless the opponent fold to our C-bet :)


Alright man now I consedered the limping strategy better and I going to go for it.

There is a tabo in poker about not limping and not playing passive but I think playing overagressive especially in a close to bubble situation like this also has its side effects.

Thank you!:)
 
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fundiver199

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There is a tabo in poker about not limping and not playing passive but I think playing overagressive especially in a close to bubble situation like this also has its side effects.

Absolutely true! I did not even take into consideration, that it was near the bubble, but in that case we have even more incentive to keep the pot small and not risk a big percentage of our stack without a very strong hand. But the main factor here is position. If I have position on the limper, then I make this isolation all day long. But when we are in the blinds, then he is the one, who should be building the pot and give us a bad price to defend. So unless we have a really strong hand, we are almost just helping him correct his mistake, when we raise it up for him :)
 
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But the main factor here is position. If I have position on the limper, then I make this isolation all day long.



But when you have position on the limper isn't that an open raise spot? Can you explain me whats the meaning when you use the term isolate? Its hard for me to understand because it looks like you are refering to someone who is after you in the action....:confused:
 
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Sometimes you have to give the villian credit,,,he prob noticed you like to "punish" limpers from your previous play and "limped" with the intention of calling your raise,,, :rolleyes: you were outplayed in this hand,,,,it happens.
 
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fundiver199

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Can you explain me whats the meaning when you use the term isolate?

If nobody have put in chips other than the blinds and antes, and we put in the first raise, its called "open raising" or just "open". Like "I opened to 2,4BB from MP+1". If someone have already limped, and we put in the first raise, then its called "isolating". Like "UTG limped, UTG+1 limped behind, and I isolated to 5BB from SB". Hope this helps to clear up the confusion :)
 
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If nobody have put in chips other than the blinds and antes, and we put in the first raise, its called "open raising" or just "open". Like "I opened to 2,4BB from MP+1". If someone have already limped, and we put in the first raise, then its called "isolating". Like "UTG limped, UTG+1 limped behind, and I isolated to 5BB from SB". Hope this helps to clear up the confusion :)


Oh Yeah now I got it ! Just confusing terms in my head thank you!
 
eetenor

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But when you have position on the limper isn't that an open raise spot? Can you explain me whats the meaning when you use the term isolate? Its hard for me to understand because it looks like you are refering to someone who is after you in the action....:confused:


Thank you for posting

Iso raise short for isolation raise is literally trying to get the hand heads-up. It happens when 1 player calls or raises and there are players left to act so we raise to get everyone else to fold.

As in this hand the BB was still live so we Iso raise expecting BB to fold and then play vs the limper only if they do not fold as well.

:)
 
eetenor

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Alright man now I consedered the limping strategy better and I going to go for it.

There is a tabo in poker about not limping and not playing passive but I think playing overagressive especially in a close to bubble situation like this also has its side effects.

Thank you!:)

Great job diving deep into this hand study


The best computer sims tell us that more than one action can be profitable. In this case it could be 70% raise 30% call even for the best players.

At your stage of study and at this stage of the tournament in this position it would not be a mistake to be 100% call.

Hope this helps
:):)
 
eetenor

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Man just one question 90/220 1:2,44 aind this number his odds? Because I thought that when you add his bet ( 310/90) to the pot size it becomes his equity needed to play the hand... Just a conceptual question:)


Thank you for responding

We always add the call size to the pot to get total pot as that is what the Villain can win on the turn. So it is 90 to win 310 or more as the betting has not ended.

The concept of implied odds is the bets we can win on turn and river when we improve to the best hand.
In NL that could mean your entire stack so it could be 90k to win 1 million more -hefty implied odds and another reason for you to bet larger OOP.

We do not add the bet to the pot on the last action so if this was the river action then yes it is 2.44 because calling only wins the 220.

Equity on 3-1 odds is 25% we need only win 1 in 4 tries to break even. So you can use that number in equilab to see what range can call KJ and have 25% equity or more.



Hope this helps
:):)
 
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brunochano

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Alright bro now I finally get it all! Thanks a lot!
 
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