$5 NLHE MTT: $$5 NLHE MTT: $$5 NLHE MTT: AQ under the gun big stacks battling

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BigXerxes

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Sb - 15k
Bb - 30k

Hero with 687k is 5th in chips with 35 players remaining from field of 1200x
raises UTG with AQ off.
Folds to cutoff who is 1st or second in chips with 867 k

Rest of the table folds

Flop Q104 rainbow
Hero bets 3/4 pot - 70k
Villain calls

Turn A (forget the suit there is now a flush draw though)

Hero checks to cutoff who bets 2/3 pot 167k

Hero has 585 left wants to fold putting villain on sets and JK
However blocking two of the 4 sets and with top two seems like a crazy fold. Hero shoved all in.

Cutoff calls and shows JK

Not sure if there is anything I could’ve done differently. Just bad luck? Thanks
 
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fundiver199

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Even though you were an above average stack, you only started the hand with 23BB, and then folding top two pair would be way to nitty. Yes he can have KJ, that makes sense, and he can also have 44 or TT, even though TT would sometimes be 3-bet preflop. But these are just 3 hands, that beat you, and he can also have a million different hands, you are ahead of. Any AX, QT, J9, flushdraws, random hands turned into bluffs. This hand is just a cooler, and there is nothing to learn from it or do different.
 
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fundiver199

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Not sure if there is anything I could’ve done differently.

Strictly speaking you do get to choose, how you go broke. And maybe I would lean towards going broke by betting the turn. When you check, you allow him to bluff, but you also allow him to check back hands like KQ or QJ, which you want to get value from. If I check, its a check-jam all day long. I am not going to check-call the turn and then have to make some gross decision on the river, if the backdoor flush comes in, or a K or J puts out a 1-liner to a straight.
 
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fundiver199

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So many people worry about coolers, and sure they suck. But they also happen to everyone, so in the long run they are just a wash. Sooner or later you will have KJ on AQT, when someone else have AQ, and they will also go broke to you. Yesterday I had a nice winning session on 888 Poker, but even then I still got coolered in important spots:

Example 1
11 left in a 5,5$ R+A, so some would call this "final table buble". Min-cash secured, but first place pay 10 times as much, so this is not, what you want to happen. But it will sometimes, and it just is, what it is.

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Example 2
Around 110 left in a 16,5$ PKO. 81 places pay, so this was near the bubble. A bit similar to your hand, except it was 38BB deep, and I got raised on the flop. Maybe there is some argument for just calling, when I get raised. But it makes future streets rather awkward, and realistically I am only behind to 77 or 55, while he might also be raising a bunch of draws or top pair with a worse kicker.

QQ-AA would have been 3-bet pre, and if he can have Q7 or Q5, then he can have every single other QX combo as well. So I shipped it in, and unfortunately I did run into a set, and I was out of the tournament. But if I was to play this hand again, I would do exactly the same thing. You dont win poker tournaments but making huge folds, because you fear the monsters under the bed.

CardsChat Poker Hands Converter
 
Collin Moshman

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Great comments/examples from Fundiver, definitely read + check out his hands.

Absolutely this is just a cooler unless stacks were much deeper.

I would just bet slightly less than 75% at the flop, and then usually continue firing this turn instead of checking to Villain and risking him checking it back with flush draw and multiple broadway cards on board.
 
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BigXerxes

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Even though you were an above average stack, you only started the hand with 23BB, and then folding top two pair would be way to nitty. Yes he can have KJ, that makes sense, and he can also have 44 or TT, even though TT would sometimes be 3-bet preflop. But these are just 3 hands, that beat you, and he can also have a million different hands, you are ahead of. Any AX, QT, J9, flushdraws, random hands turned into bluffs. This hand is just a cooler, and there is nothing to learn from it or do different

Absolutely. I’ll definitely lead the turn here in future spots to avoid getting an even worse cooler! Thanks for the reply.
 
jaworek1405

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Hello, I agree in the large part with guys. Yes, a little unlucky hand, because I don't see any escape on this hand. In this phase of the tournament we have to be careful against bigger stack than our. Good players with bigger stack can arm-twisting on smaller stack. I think that bet on the flop is OK, is a standard, but I prefer bet on the turn, because when we check on the turn, opponent can bluffs as. With top two pair on the turn I also think that fold on the turn will be too tight. If I good understan on the turn open the flush draw and I think that check on the turn is a small mistake, because opponent can play check on the turn and see for free the river card. GL :)
 
Nr98

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Even though you were an above average stack, you only started the hand with 23BB, and then folding top two pair would be way to nitty. Yes he can have KJ, that makes sense, and he can also have 44 or TT, even though TT would sometimes be 3-bet preflop. But these are just 3 hands, that beat you, and he can also have a million different hands, you are ahead of. Any AX, QT, J9, flushdraws, random hands turned into bluffs. This hand is just a cooler, and there is nothing to learn from it or do different.


You're realistically only beat by about 8 combos on average (KJs, some 44, some TT at these stakes, the % of AA flats are going to be minimal here in a $5 tourney imo). Meanwhile a solid portion of QTs is going to be flatting against this sizing, as well Qx, some J9s and random Ax floats. No need to balance here (you're not going to be exploited at these stakes), so I don't mind the big flop sizing at all if we actually bet 3/4th pot.

Having said that though, just use a hand converter in the future. Because here the stacks do not add up; we bet 60kish pre, CO flats + sb +bb +antes. Which brings the pot to about 190-200k. 70k is not a 3/4 sized bet here. Now we would find way more Tx calls, Ax, medium PP, K9s etc.

In this light the turn X/J becomes even easier for value (although I doubt it would maximize value since you're nowhere getting bluffed/bet into for thin value enough here to warrant a check). At these stakes I'd bet flop big (3/4ish as you said) and jam the turn.

Here having the correct sizings and stacks noted for your hand matters a lot. If we indeed bet 3/4 pot on the flop, the pot becomes 500k on the turn to set up for an easy jam. In a $5 tourney this accomplishes a few things:
  • We maximize value against Qx and Tx hands. Tx hands who 'have' to take at least one peel and Qx hands who feel like they simply can not fold top pair if an undercard lands on the turn. This is magnified by the population overcalling suited (and some offsuit) Qx and Tx preflop (both through not jamming enough suited broadways and calling hands that shouldn't be in their range on 20bb vs UTG open).
  • We do not allow them an easy river decision on draws, while denying equity to hands we wouldn't get any more value from. Although this actually is a minor factor, simply maximizing value here is the most important one.
 
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BigXerxes

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[quote

Having said that though, just use a hand converter in the future. Because here the stacks do not add up; we bet 60kish pre, CO flats + sb +bb +antes. Which brings the pot to about 190-200k. 70k is not a 3/4 sized bet)[/quote]



Thank you for pointing this out as I had been wondering about this too. Unfortunately I closed out of the table right after this hand so I did not get the hand history. Will be more diligent in the future. I think my error was having the wrong size of the blinds as I am quite sure about everything else. I think the blinds must have been 7.5k and 15k.

30k open plus 30k call. Pot is slightly over 90k going to flop and so 70k bet on flop was 3/4 pot. Should I go back and edit the original post?
 
Nr98

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"Having said that though, just use a hand converter in the future. Because here the stacks do not add up; we bet 60kish pre, CO flats + sb +bb +antes. Which brings the pot to about 190-200k. 70k is not a 3/4 sized bet)"



Thank you for pointing this out as I had been wondering about this too. Unfortunately I closed out of the table right after this hand so I did not get the hand history. Will be more diligent in the future. I think my error was having the wrong size of the blinds as I am quite sure about everything else. I think the blinds must have been 7.5k and 15k.

30k open plus 30k call. Pot is slightly over 90k going to flop and so 70k bet on flop was 3/4 pot. Should I go back and edit the original post?


Maybe leave the current hand as a hypothetical, 20bb and 40bb stacks play out quite differently here. But both can be very interesting to discuss!

I don't know if you play on Stars, but some sites allow you to save a file with your hand histories as well. May be worth having a quick google search to see if yours allows it (partypoker doesn't as far as I know, but there you can mark hands for later review for example). Makes reviewing your hands a whole lot easier in a later stage!

You could try a hand converter like the one from CC - https://www.cardschat.com/hand-converter.php to copy paste the hand history into, which helps getting a clear overview of the hand :D
 
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BigXerxes

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Maybe leave the current hand as a hypothetical, 20bb and 40bb stacks play out quite differently here. But both can be very interesting to discuss


Totally! Do you see a path to a fold here with a 40 bb stack?
 
Nr98

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Totally! Do you see a path to a fold here with a 40 bb stack?


Let's just start from the top, how do his preflop ranges shift?

I think in practice preflop ranges change a whole lot less at these stakes than they should in theory. Villain is supposed to flat very few hands at 20bb; some AA/KK traps, some medium Axs and a few (very) low broadway combos. But in reality I believe that population way underjams their suited broadways in micros while calling with a range that is way too wide. In general their 20bb ranges are going to be quite similar to their 40bb ranges. With some differences, for example now definitely all 44 will be in their range. We will still see too many preflop calls (most likely in their offsuit broadways, I don't see the population folding KQo here ever).

Postflop it does change some things though due to deeper stack sizes. Bet flop, overbet jam turn isn't going to be optimal imo.

As played we're going to get called off by hands we beat (QTs, ATs/ATo, A4s,J9s with fd, and some AJ/Ax punts - Which is a rough guess since we don't have the suits etc. but I would say around 15 combos would be a nice ballpark) and some hands we lose against (TT, 44, KJs/KJo - 22 combos). I don't think a x/jam for 3.5x is horrible since we do fold out a decent chunk of hands, but I don't think it's optimal since we're almost turning our hand into a bluff. Besides, again I think population overchecks the turn which makes us lose out on a lot of value on the turn while giving a free river card.

But this is a whole lot more interesting, it hugely depends on your assumptions. If you think V raises his sets on the flop at a high frequency AND he bets the turn a decent chunk of the time. A X/J is definitely a solid move. However vs the general population who underbluffs and just donates a decent chunk of their stack on any Ax, most Qx and some Tx with bdfd/bdsd, I think our turn check leaves too much money on the table. I'd Bet Bet jam any non horrible (think K/J with a flush horrible) river.

Addition: to compare the choice between X/J and B/C, it's also important to consider that a decent chunk of Villains calling range for our bet jam that we beat may actually raise the turn themselves (think AT and A4s), this only puts more value in just betting out.
 
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BigXerxes

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Let's just start from the top, how do his preflop ranges shift?

I think in practice preflop ranges change a whole lot less at these stakes than they should in theory. Villain is supposed to flat very few hands at 20bb; some AA/KK traps, some medium Axs and a few (very) low broadway combos. But in reality I believe that population way underjams their suited broadways in micros while calling with a range that is way too wide. In general their 20bb ranges are going to be quite similar to their 40bb ranges. With some differences, for example now definitely all 44 will be in their range. We will still see too many preflop calls (most likely in their offsuit broadways, I don't see the population folding KQo here ever).

Postflop it does change some things though due to deeper stack sizes. Bet flop, overbet jam turn isn't going to be optimal imo.

As played we're going to get called off by hands we beat (QTs, ATs/ATo, A4s,J9s with fd, and some AJ/Ax punts - Which is a rough guess since we don't have the suits etc. but I would say around 15 combos would be a nice ballpark) and some hands we lose against (TT, 44, KJs/KJo - 22 combos). I don't think a x/jam for 3.5x is horrible since we do fold out a decent chunk of hands, but I don't think it's optimal since we're almost turning our hand into a bluff. Besides, again I think population overchecks the turn which makes us lose out on a lot of value on the turn while giving a free river card.

But this is a whole lot more interesting, it hugely depends on your assumptions. If you think V raises his sets on the flop at a high frequency AND he bets the turn a decent chunk of the time. A X/J is definitely a solid move. However vs the general population who underbluffs and just donates a decent chunk of their stack on any Ax, most Qx and some Tx with bdfd/bdsd, I think our turn check leaves too much money on the table. I'd Bet Bet jam any non horrible (think K/J with a flush horrible) river.

Addition: to compare the choice between X/J and B/C, it's also important to consider that a decent chunk of Villains calling range for our bet jam that we beat may actually raise the turn themselves (think AT and A4s), this only puts more value in just betting out.

I love it. Thank you! As far as bad river cards to you think a 10 or 4 is a bad river card? Or does that just make sets (or now quads) less likely? And if there is a bad river card are we still calling a river bet? Thank you 😊
 
Nr98

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I love it. Thank you! As far as bad river cards to you think a 10 or 4 is a bad river card? Or does that just make sets (or now quads) less likely? And if there is a bad river card are we still calling a river bet? Thank you 😊


Good to keep in mind that my thinking may have many flaws as well, always happy to receive criticism if someone doesn't agree :)

In the micros I'd do the following:

Vs a ten I'd probably x/c if the flushdraw busted to give him an opportunity to bluff (also our value bet decreases in EV). A 4 has a two way effect; the part of his pocket 44s that are left have decreased to max 1 combo while his A4s may be between 2-0 combos depending on suits. All in all I would consider a 4 a brick because of that (it does counterfeit his QTs but that's quite limited in combos that he has left by the river).

As far as flushes go, I don't think V will be calling too many flushdraws vs our sizings (AX with a flush is blocked). So I reckon I'd exploitatively bet a low sizing for his Ax, QT etc.

Vs any Kx/Jx I'd fold, since I assume there aren't too many pure bluffs in their range and I believe the population is a bit reluctant to turn their value hands into a bluff.
 
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fundiver199

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Most poker sites have downloadable hand histories, so that you can collect your hands in a tracking program for later analysis. And of course you can also track your results, if you play different kinds of games, to see where you are winning or losing. This is highly recommended for any serious player. If you then want to share a hand to the forum, you simply copy-paste the hand history into the hand converter here on CC and get either an easy to read text outout or a replayer link, like I did with my two hands.
 
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BigXerxes

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Most poker sites have downloadable hand histories, so that you can collect your hands in a tracking program for later analysis. And of course you can also track your results, if you play different kinds of games, to see where you are winning or losing. This is highly recommended for any serious player. If you then want to share a hand to the forum, you simply copy-paste the hand history into the hand converter here on CC and get either an easy to read text outout or a replayer link, like I did with my two hands


Thanks fundiver, that’s great to know. I play at BetOnline, I’ll look into how to do that. I have been trying to set up an HUD for a while which I know would help me do this, but still only running Mac OS. Good to know I should be able to do this within the poker client
 
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