$5.50 NLHE STT: AJs facing 8x raise from the CO

[nabmom]

4 hands into the SnG and I'm happy to see AJs on the BTN. CO puts in a huge raise (I only have 4 hands on this player: one call from the BB to a SB minraise and a fold to the SB bet; and a 5x raise from UTG with one caller--a cbet on the flop took that one down).

I don't want to fold AJs in position, but it's early in the game so I also don't want to get myself in trouble. I elect to call.

Flop looks good for me. I don't give his half pot cbet a lot of credit, but again, it's early on and even with TPTK, I don't want to go crazy. I figured I'd raise him up. Here I think I made a mistake by not betting bigger.

He calls and I get the flush draw to go with my TPTK. I'm liking this hand more but am concerned that he raised big, and called my flop raise. When he checks, I bet 2/3 pot and he calls again. I'll admit that I didn't stop to think what hands he might have when he does this.

I don't know enough about his playing to know if he's reeling me in with a QQ/AA, doubt he has a 3. Could have a JJ (we've all seen it) and also could have AK/AQ/99/TT and being sticky with it.

I shut down on the river.

Thoughts?

Merge - $5+$0.50|<> NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP: 1,495.00
MP+1: 1,500.00
CO: 1,530.00
Hero (BTN): 1,485.00
SB: 1,490.00
BB: 1,500.00
UTG: 1,500.00
UTG+1: 1,500.00
UTG+2: 1,500.00

SB posts SB 5.00, BB posts BB 10.00

Pre Flop: (pot: 15.00) Hero has A♣ J♣

fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, CO raises to 80.00, Hero calls 80.00, fold, fold

Flop: (175.00, 2 players) 3♣ 3♦ J♠
CO bets 90.00, Hero raises to 180.00, CO calls 90.00

Turn: (535.00, 2 players) 8♣
CO checks, Hero bets 356.00, CO calls 356.00

River: (1247.00, 2 players) 6♠
CO checks, Hero checks

 

[BlueNowhere]

Flop is v. bad imo. What are you hoping to accomplish with your raise?

 

[Loonbat]

Fold pre - AJs here plays like A4s ... you're only happy if you hit top two or better. Often the J high flop will cost you your stack and you never know if your bare Ace on an Ace high flop is good.

Yes, you have position.
Yes, you have a suited A.
But realize that AJ is often as good as Ace-rag when you're responding to a pre-flop raiser.

 

[prepare]

raise a lot bigger on the flop

good turn

Raise on the river.

(honestly, I would re-raise pre flop and fold to 5 bet, most likely take it down on a c-bet flop if called pre)

 

[baudib1]

Preflop is pretty close, I'd lean toward folding. If blinds were 10/20 I'd fold, can see calling here with 150 BBs and the assumption that he's a clown.

Flop raise is bad, you're WA/WB. I'd flat the flop raise and maybe if he bets weak on the turn raise him there.

As played I'd probably bet $356 on the river again.

 

[kidkvno1]

Some may call me a nit for saying this.
I would have to fold it Preflop, it's the start of the game and we have no data on the player, Esp if we have not played him before.

 

[hysterisis]

Right play was probably to pitch/raise it preflop. Usually not a good idea to be calling preflop with a trap hand like that (reverse implied odds) - especially without any information on the guy.

I don't like the baby flop raise either, because he is probably calling that min raise with just about anything (you are giving him 5:1 to call). Play here is either to call to see what he does on the turn or put in a big raise and try to take it down there.

Turn bet tells you nothing but increase the pot and give him the opportunity to possibly make a big All-In on the river (Leaving you with a very difficult decision).

River check was right play because TPTK is nothing special with that board.

 

[BlueNowhere]

Right play was probably to pitch/raise it preflop. Usually not a good idea to be calling preflop with a trap hand like that (reverse implied odds) - especially without any information on the guy.

I don't like the baby flop raise either, because he is probably calling that min raise with just about anything (you are giving him 5:1 to call). Play here is either to call to see what he does on the turn or put in a big raise and try to take it down there.

Turn bet tells you nothing but increase the pot and give him the opportunity to possibly make a big All-In on the river (Leaving you with a very difficult decision).

River check was right play because TPTK is nothing special with that board.

Lol, pretty much every street is wrong.

fwiw I'd fold pre. I don't think calling is horrible but it's a meh hand and general population is unbalanced with this type of play so you can weight it more towards TT/JJ/QQ/AK type hands.

 

[hysterisis]

Lol, pretty much every street is wrong.

Care to explain that beyond 'wrong'?

 

[BlueNowhere]

Care to explain that beyond 'wrong'?

It's all been said in this thread already but answer these questions and maybe you'll get why your response is wrong.

What does raising pre accomplish? Why do you want to accomplish this?

What does raising the flop accomplish? Why do you want to accomplish this?

From this point on hand history is irrelevant because we're in a spot we shouldn't be in but to try and salvage hand on the river ask yourself what his range is before you just check back.

 

[-Phil Ivey27]

Definitely flat flop, can raise turn, eek fold to shove if you're not getting the right odds (which I don't think you would be)

 

[Loonbat]

Some may call me a nit for saying this.
I would have to fold it Preflop, it's the start of the game and we have no data on the player, Esp if we have not played him before.

This

Definitely flat flop, can raise turn, eek fold to shove if you're not getting the right odds (which I don't think you would be)

Def NOT this

 

[-Phil Ivey27]

Maybe not raise turn.. A little risky not sure what worse hands are calling you and better hands are shoving it in.

But you can't say pre-flop call is wrong, flop call would definitely be right, and turn I guess i'd probably just change to calling or betting if checked to.

 

[-Phil Ivey27]

Also probably a tiny river value bet

 

[Rldetheflop]

First level of the tourney I am probably folding pre here but my main question is to those who bet the river what exactly is our purpose here? I doubt we are getting called by much that we beat and what do we do if he sticks his stack in over us(fold of course but we def dont want that scenario)?

 

[baudib1]

We bet the river because we can read hands and know that he's never c/r the river after taking this line unless he has exactly JJ, which is 1 combo.

 

[Rldetheflop]

We bet the river because we can read hands and know that he's never c/r the river after taking this line unless he has exactly JJ, which is 1 combo.

Exept I can see a villain playing 88 or 66 and C/R the river as well as some bluffs although fold equity is close. However that is only half of what I said the other is we are not getting called hardly ever with a hand that we beat I can easily see QQ-AA taking this line and flatting a bet on the river so the check saves us chips here.

 

[baudib1]

Exept I can see a villain playing 88 or 66 and C/R the river as well as some bluffs although fold equity is close. However that is only half of what I said the other is we are not getting called hardly ever with a hand that we beat I can easily see QQ-AA taking this line and flatting a bet on the river so the check saves us chips here.

Except villain would very rarely have QQ-AA and play it like this. The river is 100% a bet, it's a $5 SNG and to say that we are not getting called by a hand that we beat is ridiculous.

P.S. "What do we beat that he calls with?" is one of my biggest pet peeve questions in poker and prevents you from thinking situations through properly. In general I like to bet when I know I have best hand and I let the other guy decide how he wants to give me his money. This spot isn't even the slightest bit thin, we have TPTK vs. a total clown in a $5. Give him 5-1 on a river call and you'll be surprised what he can hero with.

 

[Rldetheflop]

Except villain would very rarely have QQ-AA and play it like this. The river is 100% a bet, it's a $5 SNG and to say that we are not getting called by a hand that we beat is ridiculous.

P.S. "What do we beat that he calls with?" is one of my biggest pet peeve questions in poker and prevents you from thinking situations through properly. In general I like to bet when I know I have best hand and I let the other guy decide how he wants to give me his money. This spot isn't even the slightest bit thin, we have TPTK vs. a total clown in a $5. Give him 5-1 on a river call and you'll be surprised what he can hero with.

well I agree with some of that however one thing is we don't KNOW villain is a clown (although an 8x raise pre says something but it is just one play). I can easily see taking this line with QQ-AA. The other thing is your "pet peeve" I think has a tremendous amount of merit in its justification I don't know about you but it has been hammered into my head since I first started to learn how to play poker that you just do not bet mediocre hands on the river and I'm sorry but TPTK is a mediocre hand here.

However I do think that because I can see him taking this line with 66 or 88 that also includes 77,99,TT which he would probably call a small (and I mean small)value bet on the river but still think this is a check back.

 

[baudib1]

since I first started to learn how to play poker that you just do not bet mediocre hands on the river and I'm sorry but TPTK is a mediocre hand here.

That's wrong, and you're wrong.Stop leaving money out there, this is a big fat juicy value bet all day.

As played I'd probably bet $356 on the river again.

Also if you can't tell he's a clown then you should work on your observational skills.

 

[BlueNowhere]

I've played against ridetheflop and it isn't surprising me that he can't see how crystal clear a v-bet on river is, it's not even close ffs.

8x pre = villain is a mong as well.

My db of TPTK on the river where I bet


upload photo

Small sample but I think it's pretty damning.

 

[Rldetheflop]

I've played against ridetheflop and it isn't surprising me that he can't see how crystal clear a v-bet on river is, it's not even close ffs.

8x pre = villain is a mong as well.

My db of TPTK on the river where I bet


upload photo

Small sample but I think it's pretty damning.

ok first off when did we play together? Have we played a league game together? Not important I guess and not sure exactly what your chart means I didn't said its never the right play to bet TPTK on the river I just said with no real info on the villain that I don't think that is the case here. And yes I did say that 8x pre bet was telling but its still one hand. If you label people off of one hand that is a mistake apparently the same mistake you make by thinking you know my game off of playing me once?( I assume only once since I don't remember being in a game with you).

nice finish in today's league game btw.

 

[Rldetheflop]

That's wrong, and you're wrong.Stop leaving money out there, this is a big fat juicy value bet all day.



Also if you can't tell he's a clown then you should work on your observational skills.

which part is wrong? don't bet mediocre hands or this is a mediocre hand? cause the philosophy is not mine it comes from just about every poker instruction I have ever had or read.

Also I said we don't KNOW villain is a clown kinds looks like it sure but one hand isn't enough to conclude that yet. if villain IS indeed a clown we will have more opportunities to take his stack and perhaps all of it instead of just a little portion of it.

 

[BlueNowhere]

Might've been merge, I remember marking you as a fish somewhere after some horrendous plays on your part.

If somebody open limps and then jams 150 bb pre over a 3x raise we don't need more than one hand to mark them as fish. Same applies here, 8x is bad and bar a mis-click we know they're bad. So we have two possibilities. One, they mis-clicked and we're playing against a weaker than usual range in which case clear value bet. Two, they are a fish who think 8x is good in which case it's a clear v-bet. Either way this is as clear a v-bet as there ever will be. Graph shows value of betting TP on river.

 

[Rldetheflop]

Might've been merge, I remember marking you as a fish somewhere after some horrendous plays on your part.

If somebody open limps and then jams 150 bb pre over a 3x raise we don't need more than one hand to mark them as fish. Same applies here, 8x is bad and bar a mis-click we know they're bad. So we have two possibilities. One, they mis-clicked and we're playing against a weaker than usual range in which case clear value bet. Two, they are a fish who think 8x is good in which case it's a clear v-bet. Either way this is as clear a v-bet as there ever will be. Graph shows value of betting TP on river.

by merge you mean carbon right? I did play the carbon freeroll once and I did make a horrendous play (but only one I think) I still kinda shake my head about that one. And I think that is part of what I am saying everyone has some mental lapses now and then even Jared Tendler says so in his book "The Mental Game of Poker" If you saw me play for that very short period of time and marked me as a fish that is great that means you will have no idea where you are at if we play against each other.

Also I understand what the chart says I just am not sure it is relevant to the conversation unless you are showing your knowledge of when it is appropriate to bet TPTK on the river in which case I say you are right! It is a small sample size .