$5.50 NLHE MTT: is villains play +EV?

[cheaptrix]

we just got in the money (8 players left, 10 paid, both tables were combining in middle of this hand).
i think my hand is completely standard but i am more curious about your opinion of the BTN.

he calls for about 10% of his stack with 89s. is this +EV to put such a large portion of his stack in pre with suited connectors?
perhaps he figured he would out play CO post flop, idk. seems -EV to me though.
only asking b/c i looked up his stats after he out drew me (obviously) and was flabbergasted when i saw a shark swimming next to his sexy stats.

Blinds 400/800 ante 100

hero 6835
BB 24560
utg 6933
CO 32300
BTN 22405

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to hero [ Ah, Js ]
utg folds
co raises [ 2,250 Chips]
btn calls [ 2,250 Chips] (89s)
hero raises all-in [ 6,335 Chips]
bb folds
co folds
btn calls [ 4,485 Chips] (89s)


sry about HH, couldn't get the converter to work.

 

[baudib1]

Calling the open is pretty bad with a resteal stack in the blinds. After everyone folds I'd certainly call -- 4,485 to win 12,535.

 

[Shufflin]

Tough to say -- what does BTN think of the CO and of you? Have you squeezed already? He's got some room to maneuver calling pre, if CO has been stealing and/or playing fit-or-fold. Maybe he figures he's in the $, now will take a few chances...

 

[cheaptrix]

yes CO has been active. the btn has been passive even before this hand. i just have never seen a player with such gr8 stats play such a passive game.
maybe i am missing something... sure seems strange though.

Tough to say -- what does BTN think of the CO and of you? Have you squeezed already?

i expected him to call. my stack wasn't big enough to push him out. was just surprised to see 89s especially after i saw his winning graph.

 

[MediaBLITZ]

Don't see anything out of the norm on preflop here. Not that I would do it, but a lot of players I know who I fear and respect would think nothing of it. For a lot of them SC on the button is a no brainer if the open is less than 3x the BB. It's just their style. Yeah, there's a big stack in the blinds but maybe he's been playing safe for the money and the guy isn't sweating him.
Two major factors for him had to be - 1) on the button and 2) who else was in the hand and their range. Does he call if the BB shoves? Doubtful.
He probably put you on two big cards (not necessarily with an A) which meant he had two live cards with flush and straight possibilities. He is about 40% to win vs your hand (48% vs a random hand) and was given just under 3-1 on the money - so yeah - he likes those odds and has to call. If I am in the situation I would have to call - I wouldn't like it but it would have to be done. I am guessing he thought he was going to see a fit or fold flop and you messed that up for him by giving him odds. If he tanked on it at all then I'd be much more sure of it.

 

[RamdeeBen]

He's getting good odds to call your shove after the original raiser folds and for him to call on the button with suited connectors with info on the guy thinking he can out play him I don't mind his call. (Again we don't know their history)

And in question to if it's +EV, I think it has to be + EV with suited connectors which play well against a short stacks range (which in general is K5s+Ax+ ) and there is never a fold coming after the other folds, 2000 to win 12k, I'm calling everytime.

 

[dj11]

Remember this hand started as 5 handed. Modern trackers use 9 handed to figure stats, so everything is off.

89s is certainly a playable hand here, and really it looks like the whole hand played out correctly. You go in a favorite, what more can you ask for?

 

[cheaptrix]

He's getting good odds to call your shove after the original raiser folds and for him to call on the button with suited connectors with info on the guy thinking he can out play him I don't mind his call. (Again we don't know their history)

And in question to if it's +EV, I think it has to be + EV with suited connectors which play well against a short stacks range (which in general is K5s+Ax+ ) and there is never a fold coming after the other folds, 2000 to win 12k, I'm calling everytime.

did i word my question wrong? i am asking if other profitable players call the 1st raise with 89s for 10% of your stack.

guess i should have cut the HH at the point BTN calls 2250. i was stunned when i saw his stats, i would have thought calling the 1st raise was -EV.
i am still uncertain so that was the reason for the thread.


obviously he is profitably calling my shove with ATC at that point.

 

[MediaBLITZ]

did i word my question wrong? i am asking if other profitable players call the 1st raise with 89s for 10% of your stack.

Yes they will.

 

[Poker Orifice]

did i word my question wrong? i am asking if other profitable players call the 1st raise with 89s for 10% of your stack.
.

Um.... No.. they don't. (funny/entertaining responses in this thread though)

 

[dj11]

Ultimate answer is he has a fixed liability, you can't bet any more, and he has playable cards a healthy stack, and position (tho all in throws position out the window). Once the CO bailed, his pot odds (~~2.5/1) were such that he pretty much has to call. So in this case villain played fine.

 

[Poker Orifice]

Ultimate answer is he has a fixed liability, you can't bet any more, and he has playable cards a healthy stack, and position (tho all in throws position out the window). Once the CO bailed, his pot odds (~~2.5/1) were such that he pretty much has to call. So in this case villain played fine.

Pretty certain his question isn't about whether or not villain's call of the allin was correct (if you read above)

 

[MediaBLITZ]

Um.... No.. they don't. (funny/entertaining responses in this thread though)

Um... Yeah.. they do. (not to say all, some will and some won't - I'm one that won't but I know others who will. Also understand that the others who will are based more on position than probably anything)

 

[MediaBLITZ]

Um.... No.. they don't. (funny/entertaining responses in this thread though)

Um... Yeah.. they do. (not to say all, some will and some won't - I'm one that won't but I know others who will. Also understand that the others who will are based more on position than probably anything. Personally I think it's too risky and if I could only pick one play for myself I am going with PO all the way on this. But I do know other guys who are profitable that wouldn't think twice about it. I think they are nuts and do not see it.)

 

[RamdeeBen]

He most obviously had a read on the opener, one who opens in the CO trying to steal very wide indeed, it's only 5 handed and he will have position on him, there is a lot of value in 8,9s here I think, especially if button caller knows he has a high percentage of taking the pot down when likely checked to him. I've called very many loose openers with a massive range of hands short handed before, ones who for example will only bet if they hit and check if they miss.

So obviously most times they miss, we put out a sure fire c-bet knowing we take it down more times than not, +EV I'm thinking.

It's is obviously then fun to with the greats pot odds to call knowing all the drawing potential it has and even just live cards 9,8s doesn't play bad vs Ax/Kx hands on my opinion.

As for "do profitable players call 10% of their stack with it"

I'm inclined to think a fair few do, based on many reasons. Short handed obviously the first, 8,9s 5 handed really isn't as weak as it appears and two not sure exactly the main concept of play here is?

Fold,Fold,Fold a massive amount of blinds till A,10+ anypair+ = open/shove/callshove? It seems to me you go from the AVG stack size to small stack within the space of a few orbits. I think you need to apply some sort of pressure, obviously just fatting here out of position isn't good and some might argue re-shoving rather than flatting is the best play but personally (again it's about the player, he might have some greats reads on him where 8,.9s is good here most times) it's all player dependant.

Anyway, I'm dribbling on,

+EV on the button against' a loose donk who will open a massive wide range then check/fold most flops.
-EV against a tight player

 

[Pascal-lf]

bad call pre, calling shove once chips are in is fine but they aren't deep enough to be calling pre

 

[Gunner57]

What type of buy-in was this?
What type of culture was at the table? (were there a lot of flops seen?)

Could he be getting implied odds with this hand?

BTN is covered by CO and by BB. (BB would be getting 4.5/1 - 5.5/1 to call CO raise) If he figures BB would flat then he would have an opportunity to triple up or at least have enough money in play help add to the chances that if hits a monster can get paid off.

Been awhile since I played online MTT tourney (Thx DOJ) but if I were at a tourney/table that sees lots of flops coming out and was raised by a villian who could double me up who was on the loose side, with the possibility of loose passive players calling behind me, I would call with 89s here often.