$5.50 NLHE MTT Turbo: Button Shove OK ?

[Daniel72]

Deep in the Hot $5.50 ...
pokerstars Hand #85667446594: Tournament #607745403, $5.00+$0.50 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XXXIII (10000/20000) - 2012/09/03 22:48:32 ET
Table '607745403 169' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: Met4llica (265144 in chips)
Seat 2: AgesofAges (356145 in chips)
Seat 3: Daniel72ko (142533 in chips)
Seat 5: RiPaNaKeKa (85301 in chips)
Seat 6: Gaúcho 777 (511852 in chips)
Seat 7: moneycrash (174535 in chips)
Seat 8: ab305 (193723 in chips)
Seat 9: gonndoR (67623 in chips)
Met4llica: posts the ante 2500
AgesofAges: posts the ante 2500
Daniel72ko: posts the ante 2500
RiPaNaKeKa: posts the ante 2500
Gaúcho 777: posts the ante 2500
moneycrash: posts the ante 2500
ab305: posts the ante 2500
gonndoR: posts the ante 2500
RiPaNaKeKa: posts small blind 10000
Gaúcho 777: posts big blind 20000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Daniel72ko [Tc Jd]
moneycrash: folds
ab305: folds
gonndoR: folds
moneycrash said, "waht u have"
moneycrash said, "lol"
Met4llica: folds
AgesofAges: folds
Daniel72ko: raises 120033 to 140033 and is all-in
RiPaNaKeKa: folds
Gaúcho 777: calls....

 

[Poker Orifice]

yes

 

[BlueNowhere]

yes

+1.

 

[Rldetheflop]

Well I think with the stack sizes in the blinds you need a lil something and this qualifies.

 

[4thandinches]

It looks like the board disagrees with me so far, and maybe it is a big flaw in my game, but NO WAY would I shove in that position. I could see calling, but would likely fold. Average hand heads up is Qx, so I don't see how jack high would exude much confidence against the blinds. I would wait a little longer to shove in that position with an Ace or any pair. However, if you had only double the chips of the big blind , then I would have shoved with JT in that position.

 

[BlueNowhere]

It looks like the board disagrees with me so far, and maybe it is a big flaw in my game, but NO WAY would I shove in that position. I could see calling, but would likely fold. Average hand heads up is Qx, so I don't see how jack high would exude much confidence against the blinds. I would wait a little longer to shove in that position with an Ace or any pair. However, if you had only double the chips of the big blind , then I would have shoved with JT in that position.

Yep.

 

[4thandinches]

Yep.

Why is shoving such a good idea when he still has 5-6 big blinds left to wait for a MUCH better hand? It seems to be a very poor move, but I would love to hear your explanation.

 

[BlueNowhere]

Because there is 50k in the pot. Just do the calculations and you'll see it's super +ev.

 

[Daniel72]

Yep, it was 50k in chips to be won, and its more than 1/3 of my stack...

 

[Rldetheflop]

It looks like the board disagrees with me so far, and maybe it is a big flaw in my game, but NO WAY would I shove in that position. I could see calling, but would likely fold. Average hand heads up is Qx, so I don't see how jack high would exude much confidence against the blinds. I would wait a little longer to shove in that position with an Ace or any pair. However, if you had only double the chips of the big blind , then I would have shoved with JT in that position.

What? any hand you would call with you should be tripping over yourself to shove.

JTo is almost a top 20 percent hand GET IT IN!!!

 

[youregoodmate]

Why is shoving such a good idea when he still has 5-6 big blinds left to wait for a MUCH better hand? It seems to be a very poor move, but I would love to hear your explanation.

Ill keep shoving J10 on the button with 10BB, whilst you bust out waiting for aces.

 

[sam1chips]

7 BBs left, folded around to you onto the button. JT definitely shove. Need to make a move, or at least steal blinds back.
For the record, i love how the OP didn't show the results of the hand after the big blind called the all-in. It's all about the decision, and the result (from the point of view of if this was a right play or not) is irrelevant. With that being said, I am kind of interested how the hand played out lol...

 

[sam1chips]

Why is shoving such a good idea when he still has 5-6 big blinds left to wait for a MUCH better hand? It seems to be a very poor move, but I would love to hear your explanation.

Ill keep shoving J10 on the button with 10BB, whilst you bust out waiting for aces.

If you wait for a better hand like AT or better, you might not get that hand until you have like 3-4 BBs left. Then what? You're at risk and can still lose, and even if you win now you are right back where you started (6 or 7 BBs)

...Think of how you would play this hand if it was the first hand of a tournament, if everybody has the same size stacks. Table folds around to the button, you RAISE with JT. You gotta.

If the OP-er raised x2 or x3 BBs, they would have put in about half of their stack, and since the rest of their chips would've probably gone into the pot during the hand anyways, it's the best play for them to just ship it pre-flop, in my opinion.

 

[youregoodmate]

If you wait for a better hand like AT or better, you might not get that hand until you have like 3-4 BBs left. Then what? You're at risk and can still lose, and even if you win now you are right back where you started (6 or 7 BBs)

...Think of how you would play this hand if it was the first hand of a tournament, if everybody has the same size stacks. Table folds around to the button, you RAISE with JT. You gotta.

If the OP-er raised x2 or x3 BBs, they would have put in about half of their stack, and since the rest of their chips would've probably gone into the pot during the hand anyways, it's the best play for them to just ship it pre-flop, in my opinion.

Im sure I just agreed with this...

 

[sam1chips]

Im sure I just agreed with this...

Haha right, I was just going off of what you said, "Waiting for aces or kings", and wanted to include it in my post. Consequence of waiting for aces or kings is you may have to go thru the blinds again, and after that even if you double up, your chip count is probably right around where it started.

My fault for the confusion

 

[4thandinches]

Ill keep shoving J10 on the button with 10BB, whilst you bust out waiting for aces.

Way to totally misrepresent my statement. I said I would prefer an Ace or a small pair before pushing in his spot. Also, I would gladly wait for KJ or at least QJ before shoving. Sam gave a nice explantion, and that is why I probably have a leak in my game. But raising EARLY in a tourney with JT is not even remotely similar to risking all your chips LATE with the same hand. I would definitely raise early in a game on the button with JT, but you can bail out after a reraise or missing the flop.
Also, I basically equate JT with 89 suited. You want to see a cheap flop, but not risk your tournament with it.

 

[Daniel72]

I only say, i had less than a M of 3

 

[doomasiggy]

Also, I basically equate JT with 89 suited. You want to see a cheap flop, but not risk your tournament with it.

Stack size. You basically wanna open shove everything you'd normally play when you get as low as OP and are in the spot that OP was. Think our range for open shoving here should be something like T9s+/JT+/22+.

 

[youregoodmate]

Way to totally misrepresent my statement. I said I would prefer an Ace or a small pair before pushing in his spot. Also, I would gladly wait for KJ or at least QJ before shoving. Sam gave a nice explantion, and that is why I probably have a leak in my game. But raising EARLY in a tourney with JT is not even remotely similar to risking all your chips LATE with the same hand. I would definitely raise early in a game on the button with JT, but you can bail out after a reraise or missing the flop.
Also, I basically equate JT with 89 suited. You want to see a cheap flop, but not risk your tournament with it.

I was exaggerating about waiting for aces. With 6BB im probably shoving 78s+ from the button. Wait any longer and as Sam said you will just be doubling back into the red zone. With 10BB J10 is probably my weakest shove. Also aces are good for shoving but when called they are more easily dominated.

Remember we are trying to win the tournament, not sneak into the cash.

 

[Daniel72]

Question: i have a stack = 3 x pot in this spot, shouldn´t i open-shove almost any two here ?
(the pot offers 50k)

 

[Rldetheflop]

Question: i have a stack = 3 x pot in this spot, shouldn´t i open-shove almost any two here ?
(the pot offers 50k)

well I would be shoving pretty wide but I am not sure about ATC simply because the small blind is sitting with less than 4 blinds effective and would be calling pretty wide I think.

 

[youregoodmate]

well I would be shoving pretty wide but I am not sure about ATC simply because the small blind is sitting with less than 4 blinds effective and would be calling pretty wide I think.

Yeah bar the SB I would ship ATC here.

 

[nmaher18]

Always shoving here. You can't wait for a better hand/spot with 2500 antes eating at your stack. I'd be shoving with a lot worse.

p.s Calling is ridiculous.

 

[Poker Orifice]

Also, I basically equate JT with 89 suited. You want to see a cheap flop, but not risk your tournament with it.

So then what are you suggesting here? limp? Limp/Fold to a raise? Limp 'see a flop' fit or fold? Then what?

Honestly you should be shoving ~Top50% which would look something like this >

 

[duggs]

easy shove, you could turn your hand face up and still make money