$5.50 NL HE MTT: SCOOP 02-L

[mariussica88]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Table Format

MTT

Buy-in

5.50

Currency

$

Hi everyone,👋 Here is a hand from SCOOP 02-L $5.50. Here I decided to just call since we are so deep and I don't think that 3-betting with 2 players after would be the right play. Also the CO has some stats: VPIP 35 PFR 9 Limp 14 and Cold Call 31 from 23 hands, not much info but I can make an idea of how he plays. On the flop I believe that I can call his c-bet since his stats shows that he c-bet 100% (from 3 occasions ) and the flop is a good flop for 88. When he checks the turn I believe that his weak or at least his chasing a draw, that's why I decided to bet and if he had raised me I would have folded my hand. Should I bet bigger on the turn? Now when he check the river I was thinking that if I bet probably I get called with better hand then mine so I decided to check back. Would you guys bet the river here? Thank you.



pokerstars, $4.90 + $0.60 - Hold'em No Limit - 100/200 (25 ante) - 8 players


UTG: 19,738 (99 bb)
UTG+1: 59,069 (295 bb)
MP: 11,588 (58 bb)
MP+1: 16,497 (82 bb)
CO: 25,700 (129 bb)
BU (Hero): 27,048 (135 bb)
SB: 23,337 (117 bb)
BB: 24,411 (122 bb)

Pre-Flop: (500) Hero is BTN with 8♣ 8♠
4 players fold, CO raises to 500, Hero calls 500, 2 players fold

Flop: (1,500) 4♥ Q♠ 5♠ (2 players)
CO bets 550, Hero calls 550

Turn: (2,600) J♣ (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets 806, CO calls 806

River: (4,212) 3♥ (2 players)
CO checks, Hero checks

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
Calling with 88 is fine, but BTN vs. CO its certainly also a hand, which is good enough to 3-bet. So you can mix it up and do a bit of both.

Flop
With just one overcard and being in position it is pretty mandatory to call a small flop C-bet. However the reason to call is not his C-bet stats, because over a sample of just 3, these numbers dont mean anything at all. For all, we know, he might have flopped top pair or a strong draw 3 times in a row.

Turn
You say, you think, his check is weak. And sure ok. He probably would not check, if he had top pair or better. But he could easily be checking, because he has showdown value with a hand like JX or 99-TT, and in that case he is not going to fold to a turn bet. So if you bet here, you are generally getting better hands to call and most worse hands to fold except draws, that still have decent equity against you. Yes you get some protection, but if he has a hand like A6 and decided to give up, he only has 3 outs, so he wont get there were often at all. So while betting is not terrible, I do think, your hand is a bit to in between, and I prefer to check back and try to get to a cheap showdown.

River
On the river we always need to ask ourselfes the fundamental river question "can I get better hands to fold or worse hands to call". Here I definitely dont think, you can get worse hands to call, unless he is a complete whale. You could perhaps get 99-TT or JX to fold, so if you bet, it would be a bluff. But you still beat all busted draws and hands like A4 or A5, if he decided to check-call the turn with those. So your hand is to weak to bet for value but strong to turn into a bluff, and therefore you should check back, as you did.

 

[300HPGOD]

Pretty much agree with the above but I will add my thoughts on the turn since I think that is the most intersting street in this hand considering how it played out. I agree that checking is better than betting. I do believe though that Qx bets here and I think most of the time Jx will bet here but not always. So when they check its a lot of Ace high stuff and some Jx that didnt bet. If you bet here then you are betting here to either deny equity from overcards or some draw if they have it or you are betting as a blocker bet of sorts for the river as if you bet here on the turn you will most likely get checked to on the river. I think either of those are at least somewhat okay reasons to bet the turn but if we are going to bet why so small? Small bets there are generating any fold equity (imo) from the hands we want to deny equity from. The bet in that case then becomes a value bet of sorts as you are targeting those hands, however, you are giving villain such a good price that their draws are at least close and the equity you are attempting to deny is not far off from making the right call. So I would say that if are going to bet the turn there (I generally wouldnt bet there) that it should be bigger to at least get some folds from the stuff you are worried about drawing out.

I think in this spot we actually would not be too mad if villain bets into us on the river (depending on the river card) since we can rule out Qx so I am not afraid of villain betting here and if the its a low card in the deck and villains bet is not huge I am perfectly fine bluff catching with 88. Thats another reason to check the turn here.

On river I completely agree with FunDiver but I would not attempt a bluff either. We are betting the turn with our Qx so villain knows we would not have it the same as we know they dont have it. So with them knowing we are a little capped I dont like trying to make 1010 or 99 fold there and its such a sliver of their range. We cant target smaller pairs either because they all set except 77,66, and 22 which is also a sliver so when this is checked to me on river I am snap checking back and taking the showdown value of 88.

 

[fundiver199]

or you are betting as a blocker bet of sorts for the river as if you bet here on the turn you will most likely get checked to on the river.

I think, its called "reverse block", since Hero is in position. And it is a valid argument for betting small with an in between hand. Often this is also the case, when we C-bet the flop as the preflop raiser. If Villain just call and check to us on the turn, it allows us to check back turn and see both cards for the price of one small bet.

However where this kind of goes out the window, is if Villain has any sort of significant check-raising frequenzy. In this hand that they might be tricky enough to C-bet flop and then check-raise turn, because they expect, than when they check to us, we are going to be betting at a waaaaay to high frequency. Which actually seem to be the case here, since OP think, a turn check is always week.

So a lot depends on the dynamics, and what we know about the Villain. A lot of players dont use check-raises, when they have the initiative. But good players do, and if our mentality is, that a turn check is always weak and an invitation to take the pot away, then we are very vulnerable to check-raises. So the more balanced line here is to check back. But against bad opponents, who are playing in a very face up manner, we can get away with a small bet, like OP did.

 

[mariussica88]

Here is the full hand. I think that this is a player which likes to see a lot of flops and only becomes aggressive when he has something, I agree with you guys that probably the best play was to check the turn, and hope that he bets the river and just call.

Thank you for the feedback. 🙏

PokerStars, $4.90 + $0.60 - Hold'em No Limit - 100/200 (25 ante) - 8 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

UTG: 19,738 (99 bb)
UTG+1: 59,069 (295 bb)
MP: 11,588 (58 bb)
MP+1: 16,497 (82 bb)
CO: 25,700 (129 bb)
BU (Hero): 27,048 (135 bb)
SB: 23,337 (117 bb)
BB: 24,411 (122 bb)

Pre-Flop: (500) Hero is BTN with 8♣ 8♠
4 players fold, CO raises to 500, Hero calls 500, 2 players fold

Flop: (1,500) 4♥ Q♠ 5♠ (2 players)
CO bets 550, Hero calls 550

Turn: (2,600) J♣ (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets 806, CO calls 806

River: (4,212) 3♥ (2 players)
CO checks, Hero checks

Total pot: 4,212

Showdown:
BU (Hero) shows 8♣ 8♠ (a pair of Eights)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 54%, Flop: 70%, Turn: 68%, River: 100%)

CO shows K♠ T♦ (high card, King)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 46%, Flop: 30%, Turn: 32%, River: 0%)

BU (Hero) wins 4,212

 

[eetenor]

Hi everyone,👋 Here is a hand from SCOOP 02-L $5.50. Here I decided to just call since we are so deep and I don't think that 3-betting with 2 players after would be the right play. Also the CO has some stats: VPIP 35 PFR 9 Limp 14 and Cold Call 31 from 23 hands, not much info but I can make an idea of how he plays. On the flop I believe that I can call his c-bet since his stats shows that he c-bet 100% (from 3 occasions ) and the flop is a good flop for 88. When he checks the turn I believe that his weak or at least his chasing a draw, that's why I decided to bet and if he had raised me I would have folded my hand. Should I bet bigger on the turn? Now when he check the river I was thinking that if I bet probably I get called with better hand then mine so I decided to check back. Would you guys bet the river here? Thank you.



PokerStars, $4.90 + $0.60 - Hold'em No Limit - 100/200 (25 ante) - 8 players


UTG: 19,738 (99 bb)
UTG+1: 59,069 (295 bb)
MP: 11,588 (58 bb)
MP+1: 16,497 (82 bb)
CO: 25,700 (129 bb)
BU (Hero): 27,048 (135 bb)
SB: 23,337 (117 bb)
BB: 24,411 (122 bb)

Pre-Flop: (500) Hero is BTN with 8♣ 8♠
4 players fold, CO raises to 500, Hero calls 500, 2 players fold

Flop: (1,500) 4♥ Q♠ 5♠ (2 players)
CO bets 550, Hero calls 550

Turn: (2,600) J♣ (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets 806, CO calls 806

River: (4,212) 3♥ (2 players)
CO checks, Hero checks

As played we want to study our bet sizing on the turn in relation to the V's range- If we take the time to use equilab to create a range of hands that want to continue and then compare equities to 88 we will see that if we bet we want to have more of our V's range fold or pay a higher price to draw- Does your sizing do that?
If our plan is to check back river after betting does that adjust our value/ protection sizing on the turn?
If we had two pair+ on the turn what sizing would we use?
If our V is never bluffing river with a lead does that effect our sizing choice on turn?
We will be turning our 88 into a bluff on river low frequency ? What sizing turn would we use to rep top of range on river?
With these turn SPR's does a larger river pot increase our bluff success frequency?

Do these data points suggest a common sizing?