$5,50 NL HE MTT: Call 5-bet with JJ?

Andyreas

Andyreas

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Dear forum,

I would like your opinions on this hand. It's a PKO and very early in the tourney. I have about starting stack and standard bounty.

I got dealt JJ in CO and make a standard open. BB 3-bets and I decided to 4-bet. To my surprise the BB 5-bets with a shove. Since 36% of my stack is invested, I felt like I could not fold here. Even if I would put BB on a range of AQ+, JJ+ thinking again.

Happy to get your feedback here:
  • Do you agree on my 4-bet?
  • Should I have folded to the 5-bet even with the amount of stack invested?

pokerstars, $4.90 + $0.60 - Hold'em No Limit - 150/300 (35 ante) - 6 players
Hand delivered by CardsChat

pokerbrasi31 (UTG): 24,895 (83 bb)
Lavrik15 (MP): 29,520 (98 bb)
AndyreasDE (CO): 25,303 (84 bb)
SIRBOHEMIA (BU): 24,410 (81 bb)
savidio4429 (SB): 41,396 (138 bb)
satti1337 (BB): 35,276 (118 bb)

Pre-Flop:
(660) Hero (AndyreasDE) is CO with J J
2 players fold, AndyreasDE (CO) raises to 750, 1 fold, savidio4429 (SB) calls 600, satti1337 (BB) 3-bets to 3,600, AndyreasDE (CO) 4-bets to 9,000, 1 fold, satti1337 (BB) 5-bets to 35,241 (all-in), AndyreasDE (CO) calls 16,268 (all-in)

Flop:
(51,496) K 5 4 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: (51,496) 8 (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: (51,496) 4 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: 51,496

Showdown:
satti1337 (BB) shows K K (a full house, Kings full of Fours)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 82%, Flop: >99%, Turn: 100%, River: 100%)

AndyreasDE (CO) shows J J (two pair, Jacks and Fours)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 18%, Flop: <1%, Turn: 0%, River: 0%)

satti1337 (BB) wins 51,496
 
kunkgreen

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I always feel uncomfortable when after making a 3bet with JJ I get a reraise (of course it all depends on position, stack, etc).
So it would depend a lot on the available information I had on the villain.

About the 4bet, as there was already a call (sb), it would be more likely that the BB (in my view) had a good hand rather than a light 4-bet. It's a difficult situation.

You touched on a key point, as you already had a lot of chips in the pot... But I think you could still stay healthy in the competition.

What was the villain's image like?
If I have some information on villain's weak shoves I would definitely call. Otherwise, always on the back foot!
 
Andyreas

Andyreas

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What was the villain's image like?
If I have some information on villain's weak shoves I would definitely call. Otherwise, always on the back foot!
I haven't seen any shove of him as the table was quite new to me. I'd have to look it up but I guess there were only around 15-20 hands so far.

His previous call of a shove by a small stack was with AKs but of course who wouldn't call here.

Based on the amount of hands I've seen him in, he wasn't loose for sure but for much more, I'd need to have been further in the tourney/on the table with him.
 
kunkgreen

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Having seen the AKs, I would already have some doubts!
I don't usually challenge players who have very strong hands at showdown with less than QQ+...
I mean, again it will always depend on several factors.

It's amazing how knowing some of the villain's hands at showdown changes the dynamics and decision making, even without considering important factors like position and the like...

Jacks is suc..... lol
1663107712477

The situation below I dropped easily, but it was a UTG raise, and I didn't have any information.
1663107850657
 
SpanRmonka

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Hey Andreas. I don't think players at our level 5 bet very easily. I would say possibly more like QQ+ AKo AKs. Also, and these are rough calcs, there was around 14500 in pot after your 4 bet, and he has to call 5400. So you gave him a great price to call if he had a weaker hand, but he didn't, he still chose to shove. I think this makes it even more likely he has a monster.

Personally I think you can/would be better off calling his 3 bet. Or having 4 bet, I think you have to fold JJ to a shove for your tourney life. You still have 64% of your stack, This is more than enough to work your way into the tourney.

From a personal point of you, I can also be prone to make these decisions at times, overvaluing hands, or choosing to believe I could be in better shape than the reality.
Think about the last time you 5 bet light.....I'm assuming, like me, its probs never ever happened. Not that I can remember anyway. If I did, it was likely a tilty move! haha
 
F

fundiver199

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I would not 4-bet JJ in this situation. The 3-bet is very large already, and stacks are to deep to profitably get JJ all-in preflop. The other problem is your sizing, which is so large, that you (accidentally) committed yourself to the pot. Whenever we raise preflop to a non all-in size, we want to be able to have a raise-fold range, because otherwise we might as well have jammed. Here its kind of awkward, because his 3-bet is so large, and maybe the best solution is to not have a 4-betting range at all but play everything including AA and KK as just a call.
 
Andyreas

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Thank you for your input guys.

Obviously, I still need some improvement when playing at multiple tables. When I jumped back to the table I did not pay proper attention to:
  • His 3-bet being out of position
  • His 3-bet being larger than usual
  • A potential 4-bet would commit me to the hand
I assume he definitely wanted the SB to fold because of his wide range and KK unlikely improving (which even happened, lol)

If I were to play this hand again, I'd indeed simply call the 3-bet and then fold to the K on the flop. Would have been easy here. I'd probably make the mistake to not fold with an overpair of JJ on a dry flop, of course depending on the bet size.

So all in all I take away:
  • Take the time to analyse the hand when playing on multiple tables. That's what the time bank is for. 😅
  • Improve my capabilities of folding the upper range of the pocket pairs. I've definitely learnt to fold the lower and medium ones but obviously need some improvement here.
I am a little angry at myself because I felt I was behind with the 5-bet but just couldn't fold. But as SpanRmonka said: 64% of a stack is still good, especially at the blind sizes and definitely better than 0. 🤣

The other problem is your sizing, which is so large, that you (accidentally) committed yourself to the pot.
Do you mean the sizing of my 4-bet? Isn't it supposed to be something like 2.5-3x the previous bet?
 
Matt_Burns88

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I'm not a fan of 4-betting JJ, almost ever. I think some people get carried away because they're face cards, but JJ should not be considered a premium hand.
What range of hands do you point your opponent on when he 3-bets?
What range of hands do you point your opponent on when he 5-bets?

I think your open raise is standard, but his 3-bet is very large. Normally I would expects 3-bets to a 2.5x raise and a call to be around the 9-10bb mark. He goes to 12bb. Personally, I would consider folding here unless you have seen villain make this sort of play regularly, or been caught bluffing, but I think in the end I would opt to call and see a flop. When he 5-bets this is a nasty spot because we're basically pot committed, but at this level you're almost always facing an overpair, because players just don't 5 bet bluff and I think you would struggle to find many players that would 5-bet AK, so you're a massive dog against that range and should probably find a fold even though we've put 40% of our stack in. Having said all of that, I think the bigger mistake is 4-betting JJ in the first place. If we just call his 3-bet, we can check/call. or even find a check/fold on the flop and save a huge portion of our stack.
 
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fundiver199

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Do you mean the sizing of my 4-bet? Isn't it supposed to be something like 2.5-3x the previous bet?
A 4-bet can actually sometimes be smaller than that especially in position. This is a very common situation in online cash games with 100BB stacks. But here the issue is, even a "small" 4-bet would still have to be to at least 25BB, and you were less than 100BB effective. So its still not great to 4-bet and then fold, especially not a hand like JJ, which beat some of his 3-betting range. If you want to have a 4-bet range, make it more polarized like KK+ for value and a hand like A5s as a bluff. Or just only KK+ for value, if you dont think, he folds enough, and you dont need to be balanced.
 
flail1

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tough spot for JJ - probably dominated or racing at best...
 
rock0001

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calling the 3 bet or shoving all in after the 3 bet was the optimal move in this spot because by making the 4 bet you are risking more than a third of your stack and if villain makes the 5 bet you will be facing a very tough decision.

since you still have 64% of your stack left. i think folding its reasonable because the only hands villain will have at least 90% of the times are queens or better and maybe ak, so folding its the best choice in this situation.
 
makisaa

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I think that betting so much with a JJ maybe means your game read and your judgement says yes. But usually if your opponent insists on betting more and more, he must have something strong, and from the strongest. Here he had a strong pair and evolved to a full house. I think you should aboard this hand from the moment you rise to 750 and face a huge three bet 3600!:)
 
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