$5.5 NLHE MTT: KK 4-Bet pf: My hand beating villain range after he shoves the river

[ciriciric]

$5.5 NLHE MTT: KK 4-Bet pf: My hand beating villain range after he shoves the river

Hi everyone,

This hand was played on GG so I only know villain VPP 22%, I have seen him for the 1st time and we are only about 10-15 hands into the tourney, but it seems like he knows what he is doing.

It is 8-max MTT
Blinds 50/100

pf: Villain is in HJ and it folds to him and he opens 250. Hero is in CO with black kings and 3Bets to 760. It folds back to villain and he 4Bets to 1650 and hero calls.

flop: 8c 8s Qs
It goes check check

turn: 5s (pot: 3540)
villain bets 1770, hero calls

river: 7s (pot: 7080 - eff. stack: 6300)
villain goes all-in

What do you think about villain range here? After flop check, I didn't really expect him to jam on the river. But I guess with QQ this would be the perfect line especially now when the board let us improve with the flush or AA with the spade makes sense. I don't think he had AsQx and chose to 4-Bet pf. Since the hero has the KK with the spade, we block so much. Also, why check this flop in a 4-Bet hand if you don't have a very strong hand? His range should have Full-house and both overpairs.
Anyway, I ended up folding. What do you think about this spot, should I have made the call?

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
I would just have 5-bet jammed, and that would pretty much make all the rest of the discussion irrelevant. Either he fold, which is fine, or he calls it off, and then come what may.

Flop
I would bet when checked to. Charge hands like AQ, AK, 99-JJ. I am still not really sure, why you are playing KK so slowly?

Turn
As played its just a call now. Raising would be pretty weird after checking back the flop, and folding would be way to nitty.

River
As played I think, folding was fine. Even though you improved to a K high flush, its on a 1-liner board, so your hand is definitely only a bluff catcher, especially in a 4-bet pot. He is not doing this with a J high flush or worse "for value". He either have you beat, or he is bluffing. And If he was interested in bluffing, why did he check the flop? I dont really see it, so I think, this was either QQ flopping top set and trying to "trap" you, or he backdoored into the nut flush.

Conclusion
As played I kind of like your decision to fold on the river, but I think, the chips should have gone in preflop. By not 5-bet jamming KK, you let him off the hook cheaply with his AK, his QQ and his bluffs, and on most runouts you are still going to get stacked, if he happen to have AA.

 

[ciriciric]

Preflop
I would just have 5-bet jammed, and that would pretty much make all the rest of the discussion irrelevant. Either he fold, which is fine, or he calls it off, and then come what may.

Flop
I would bet when checked to. Charge hands like AQ, AK, 99-JJ. I am still not really sure, why you are playing KK so slowly?

Turn
As played its just a call now. Raising would be pretty weird after checking back the flop, and folding would be way to nitty.

River
As played I think, folding was fine. Even though you improved to a K high flush, its on a 1-liner board, so your hand is definitely only a bluff catcher, especially in a 4-bet pot. He is not doing this with a J high flush or worse "for value". He either have you beat, or he is bluffing. And If he was interested in bluffing, why did he check the flop? I dont really see it, so I think, this was either QQ flopping top set and trying to "trap" you, or he backdoored into the nut flush.

Conclusion
As played I kind of like your decision to fold on the river, but I think, the chips should have gone in preflop. By not 5-bet jamming KK, you let him off the hook cheaply with his AK, his QQ and his bluffs, and on most runouts you are still going to get stacked, if he happen to have AA.

Thank you for your reply, much appreciated as always. I will usually 5-Bet all-in, but I was afraid that he might fold hands like JJ or AK, so from time to time, I will just call villains 4-Bets with KK or AA. On the flop, it was really weird that he didn't C-Bet meaning that he either totally missed or flopped the nuts. But I wasn't scared that he might have the nuts, I just thought that I might induce some bluffs or bet the turn and river myself as it is a 4Bet hand and I could still get his stack. After this flop, there aren't many cards in the deck that can hurt me.

 

[300HPGOD]

Pre flop I think you can go either way here although in game I would be 5 bet jamming or making some 5 bet with the intention of getting it in against a 6 bet or if called jamming the flop no matter what comes. I dont mind calling here to try to keep the QQ through 1010 hands in but if I am only calling here then my intention would be to play the hand fast unless an ace flops. Even if an ace didnt flop that would not mean Im ahead but if I am going against aces and jammed Id be way behind anyway so I could see calling and getting in the mental mindset of being committed on non ace flops.

The flop should be a bet by you as played since you can get worse hands to call like those big pairs that you hope villain has and if they just nailed a set on you then they did. It happens but I would play the hand like I mentioned above where if no ace flopped (if an ace flops I have a greater chance of misplaying the hand as QQ or JJ could bluff the turn or bet the flop so that is one reason why jamming is better pre) Im betting big and fast here hoping I am going against a smaller pair that cant fold.

On the turn as played you can raise here small to try to dictate the river action which I personally like to try to do but in this spot I think we are better off playing our hand as a bluff catcher (Im counting JJ and 1010 as bluffs here) instead of raising. I think we should call here hoping villain leads the river. Having the 3 spades on the board does change things a bit where we are a bit stronger than other times we have KK in this spot so we can allow the river card more often knowing one of the 4 aces makes a flush (boat possible so cant say nuts).

On the river this one is tough to me. Boats beat us which is a possible holding and so does ace of spades. If you say villain is good here then they might bluff less knowing there are a lot of strong hands like ours that will likely still call. I dont think they would be doing this with JJ and 1010 so not sure what that leaves as QQ is boat and A of spades would do this. Playing the hand the way you did means we do get to fold here and not lose too much of our stack (or at least less than what we could have) although we did under rep our hand the whole time outside the 3 bet pre. Im trying to think of hands that would jam here that are not "true" bluffs or hands that have us beat and I cant think of many. I mean tbat I dont think even smaller pairs with a spade jam here since it is too likely we would have a bigger spade or even a boat ourself. I dont think villain is bluffing enough here to call especially since my thinking is a big part of their 4 bet range is QQ-AA and AK. I think only AK and QQ check the flop as they did after 4 betting. AK is rare since we have two blockers and the ace could be spades.

 

[marianexbj]

Interesting hand and I think I like the fold, basically because it doesn't have enough bluff, if 4bet preflop I think it is made up of QQ +, AK and some Axs, in that sequence taking into account the check flop I think the Ax with the spade would have continued or also sometimes check to evaluate later especially if he had the spade, the turn and all in river I think it has a lot of value, I do not see possible bluffs. I like the fold.