$4k Guaranteed, Pot Limit Hold 'Em, Weird Re-raise

[blankoblanco]

Villain has never re-raised pre-flop before, but we're only about 30 hands deep. What do you make of this limp-behind and then re-raise? Does he ever do this with a legitimate hand? What's the minimum you would have to have to get it all-in here?

full tilt poker Game #2228081772: $4,000 Guarantee (16386630), Table 12 - 25/50 - Pot Limit Hold'em - 3:36:53 ET - 2007/04/17
Seat 1: adk5 (4,239)
Seat 2: KrazyKooter1 (4,348)
Seat 3: jcaminelli (2,210)
Seat 4: combuboom (1,830)
Seat 5: ssbazza007 (3,643)
Seat 6: clean86 (2,780)
Seat 7: falconseelster (2,270)
Seat 8: BOUBOULINI (2,660), is sitting out
Seat 9: Cal Cal Cal (3,020)
jcaminelli posts the small blind of 25
combuboom posts the big blind of 50
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to combuboom [TWO CARDS]
ssbazza007 folds
jcaminelli: flush draw
clean86 folds
falconseelster folds
BOUBOULINI folds
Cal Cal Cal folds
adk5 calls 50
KrazyKooter1 calls 50
jcaminelli calls 25
combuboom raises to 250
adk5 folds
KrazyKooter1 raises to 850
jcaminelli folds
combuboom...

What's your range for shoving?

 

[hott_estelle]

AA or KK. QQ or AK deserves at least a call here, I think you can call with either of those hands, see a flop and play it from there. If you have to fold on the flop, you'll still have about 1000 left, on 25/50 blinds, which is 20xBB and that's plenty to play with in a tourney.

AA or KK shove. QQ or AK call, possibly even down to JJ or 10-10, but that would definitely be stretching it a bit. Anything less, fold, unless you have a damn good read on him.

AA shove easy, your ahead of everything, KK shove easy as well, if your behind its a cooler and nothing you can do.

 

[blankoblanco]

Alright, but my question is why is that your range on him? If we're going with QQ, why shouldn't we be going looser than that?

He limped behind in LP after someone had already limped. It's not like he open-limped in EP. Should we really expect someone to limp behind an LP limp with a 99-QQ type hand to begin with? Then re-raise big over a raise? It seems to me like all of this range would have (reasonably) raised to begin with.

 

[hott_estelle]

Alright, but my question is why is that your range on him? If we're going with QQ, why shouldn't we be going looser than that?

He limped behind in LP after someone had already limped. It's not like he open-limped in EP. Should we really expect someone to limp behind an LP limp with a 99-QQ type hand to begin with? Then re-raise big over a raise? It seems to me like all of this range would have (reasonably) raised to begin with.

I only said this because you stated he hadn't reraise prelop once through 30+ hands. Yes, that's not too many hands if we're thinking ring games, ect, but in tourney play this guy is a strictly tight player, that probably doesn't like to raise preflop without having a premium hand like an AA, KK, QQ, or even JJ. That's why your range to shove here should be at least AA or KK, and even AK or QQ deserves at least a call, and for JJ or 10-10 you're going to need a very generous flop (and even then you might still have to fold, depending on the play that ensues).

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

This is someone being silly with a mid-low PP very often.

 

[blankoblanco]

This is someone being silly with a mid-low PP very often.

This was more along the lines with my thinking. Does that mean you'd be confident enough to go with something like 99? AQs?

 

[Ronaldadio]

Looking at your stack its one of those times in a MTT where I start to think "Time to gamble?"

We know he could have anything, but I`m more inclined to put him on a big ace, or, as has been said, pair 99,88,77.

The only other stack with similar chips to him folded on the raise adk5, so now his AK, AQ, 99, 88, 77 looks better.

So, the dilema here is, if u have say 1010, JJ, QQ u will be calling with half your stack, almost. What do u do if an Ace hits the flop? AA/KK are an easy push.

So 2 choices. If its time to gamble, I push with 1010+ AK. If its not, I fold anything but AA/KK.

Also, what does jcaminelli: flush draw mean???

 

[ChuckTs]

This is someone being silly with a mid-low PP very often.

^this, plus some weird marginal high-card hands like AJ/AT/KQ etc

See:
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/poker-strategy-33/jj-vs-odd-limp-raise-15-turbo-80024/
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/poker-strategy-33/postament-hand-aj-vs-mrstickers-limp-raise-80275/

I'll probably stick him in with TT+ and AQ+, though I like to gambool .

 

[calibanboy]

I would Shove with QQ,KK, AA.

I would fold everything else. Personal preference. He has accumulated chips and likely to be bullying with Marginal hand.

But as we know this does not mean that he does not have the goods.

 

[calibanboy]

Anoither point to consider is " has anyone who acts after him been consistently raising? " - if so - it could well be a calculated trap by him.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

This was more along the lines with my thinking. Does that mean you'd be confident enough to go with something like 99? AQs?

Probably not.

I think AA-TT/AK is a reasonable shoving range here. Calling with anything is pretty bad given stack sizes.

 

[blankoblanco]

I had AQs and folded, thought it might have been weak at the time.

He had AA and SHOWED. So people are limping behind in LP with AA now? jesus

 

[calibanboy]

So people are limping behind in LP with AA now? jesus

Potnetially a very valid play if you take into account betting patterns......

 

[blankoblanco]

True enough, it can actually be pretty effective when you've got a guy back there who loves to raise the limpers.. takes a nice, strong read to pull off though.

However, I was playing pretty tight, not raising much at all, so I thought it was kind of fishy for the situation. He was going to end up seeing a flop with 3 other players a whole lot of the time in an unraised pot (which is obv not what you want with AA). I just happened to pick up a hand in the BB

 

[calibanboy]

I agree that it is unorthodox. However that one of the great things about poker. Doing things that other people do not expect can win you lots of money.

However, this would only work if he is able to fold the AA on teh mainy times you do not raise.

Thats said you did well to fold. Always be aware of "suspect play ".

A good hand to debate this one, especially as the BB squeeze play is a regular one when someone in the BB has a decent hand and wants all the dead mony from limpers.

 

[hott_estelle]

I had AQs and folded, thought it might have been weak at the time.

He had AA and SHOWED. So people are limping behind in LP with AA now? jesus

Unconventional, very inexperienced players, yes they do that.

 

[calibanboy]

Unconventional, very inexperienced players, yes they do that.

In My opinion either a very inexperienced or very experienced player would do this. Nothing in between.

The experienced player knows that he is well disguised and also knows how to fold the AA if required.

 

[dj11]

I'm inclined to believe he is playing you here, more than his cards.
He sees you as short stack, and wants to put you to the test, so really his range could be anything. He will still be in fine shape if you push, and he folds, but will be in great shape if you just fold.

He put you to the test, did you pass or fail?