$40 NLHE MTT: Live turbo MTT, 44 UTG 5 handed

ManicLombax

ManicLombax

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11 players left, about 40 started. I think 4 get paid. I had shipped the previous 2 hands here, and had been playing aggressively most of the tournament. Blinds recently doubled to 1000/2000, so everyone is short stacked. Average stack is probably 10000.

To be honest I didn't notice that BB had a stack as big as mine. Not sure if that affects our reasoning at all or not.

blinds: 1000/2000 no antes

stack sizes:
Hero (UTG): ~17000
UTG+1 through SB: shorter stacks, don't remember exactly
BB: ~17000

Hero has 44. Ship it?
 
ManicLombax

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Any comments on this? I think shoving might be marginally +ev, but with my image I'm probably getting called a lot with 4 people to get through, and I'll almost always be flipping. Also no antes to pick up here.
 
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BigThingWithHolesInIt

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It depends a bit on table dynamics but if opponents are mostly loose passive, I'd fold and shove a worse hand from a better position.
Then again these stakes are much higher than I play at so I may be way out of my league here.
 
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I think folding is fine if they are actually going to adjust their calling range, otherwise rip it.
 
Karkus77

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ooooh this one is very marginal, if you had been quiet i would shove all day

but you have shoved the previous 2, i think with the blinds as they are i am still shoving this, just more likely to get called with broadway/Ax hands, gotta win them coinflips
 
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RamdeeBen

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Maybe I'm nuts and always am the small minority but I can't EVER feel folding here is acceptable.

If anyone thinks folding and "waiting for a better spot" here when the AVG stack has 4-5 blinds left and you yourself have only 8 blinds is crazy in my eyes.

For one, you're unlikely to get a better spot, unless you run really good and expect to pick up aces or kings in the next 2/3 hands and expect to be called ..

I don't understand how anyone can say "wait for a better spot most likely flipping" you're always going to be flipping when avg stack size is like 4blinds deep so why wait any longer? You have at least some equity here to shove + you get FE when the worse players folding hands they should be snapping of in the BB.

Super easy shove, not even hazard thinking a fold if you do in these dynamics then it's really bad imo.

It is also LIVE.which makes shipping even easier.

It depends a bit on table dynamics but if opponents are mostly loose passive, I'd fold and shove a worse hand from a better position.
Then again these stakes are much higher than I play at so I may be way out of my league here.

It doesn't depend on anything or thinking about anything really here. 5 handed..5blinds effective stacks, if you have active or nitty players when the stacks are like this I Can't see any other play than to ship this hand (This hand feels like aces in this spot)

You honestly believe shoving a worse hand from a better position is better? You could be very well dead by the point this happens and when it does happen, you will have zero SD value.

$40.00 represents about a 0.01hyper turbo game on pokerstars. The players are not very good to be thining on a level of how others are players to even fold this and "wait" lol.


We are playing to WIN..not limp in the money and even limping in the money is going to be far to difficult if we are folding here.


I think folding is fine if they are actually going to adjust their calling range, otherwise rip it.

What?:s

I think far to many people think about ICM...ehen it's irrelevent in this spot...it's a live tournament and it's not even close to the bubble. We're going to win another flip here to get to the money anyways, why not hope to get called and EXPECT to be flipping? Chances are we're not going to often get a much better hand than a flip anyways..chances are blinds will reach us giving us less chips and giving us some garbage hand which has no SD value.
 
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BigThingWithHolesInIt

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Of course it's close to the bubble if the average stack is 5 BBs. I also don't see why showdown value would still be relevant at this stage, though I may have my definitions mixed up. What you're looking for is FE and if there are three players next to act who are more eager to get their stack in than you are, I feel it makes sense to fold here.
On the other hand it may be that stacks are this shallow because the players are very nitty, in which case it's a clear shove. Hence, table dynamics are important imo.
 
Karkus77

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Of course it's close to the bubble if the average stack is 5 BBs. I also don't see why showdown value would still be relevant at this stage, though I may have my definitions mixed up. What you're looking for is FE and if there are three players next to act who are more eager to get their stack in than you are, I feel it makes sense to fold here.
On the other hand it may be that stacks are this shallow because the players are very nitty, in which case it's a clear shove. Hence, table dynamics are important imo.

40 started, 11 left, 4 get paid, its really not close to the bubble to be thinking to much about it yet
 
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BlueNowhere

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Of course it's close to the bubble if the average stack is 5 BBs. I also don't see why showdown value would still be relevant at this stage, though I may have my definitions mixed up. What you're looking for is FE and if there are three players next to act who are more eager to get their stack in than you are, I feel it makes sense to fold here.
On the other hand it may be that stacks are this shallow because the players are very nitty, in which case it's a clear shove. Hence, table dynamics are important imo.
Average stack is 5BB so it's a fair assumption that the structure is poor rather than the play is nitty. I'd rather hang myself than fold in this spot.

Even if someone does change their range and Call an UTG with like A7 we're still favourite and with the blinds already in the pot it's fist pump time.

Shoving>hanging yourself in the bathroom>folding imo.
 
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RamdeeBen

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Of course it's close to the bubble if the average stack is 5 BBs. I also don't see why showdown value would still be relevant at this stage, though I may have my definitions mixed up. What you're looking for is FE and if there are three players next to act who are more eager to get their stack in than you are, I feel it makes sense to fold here.
On the other hand it may be that stacks are this shallow because the players are very nitty, in which case it's a clear shove. Hence, table dynamics are important imo.

Wow..you think we're on the bubble when there are still 7 players to bust before we have reached the money? We're a million miles away from that and have to get our chips in at least two times, maybe more to comfortably make the money table.

When the avg stack has 4blinds left and there are 11 left (awful structure btw) and only 4 get paid then the bubble hasn't even come into effect yet so considering to fold here is awful.

Of course we want to at least have our 4'4s have some equity at show down so when we do get called, we have that..If we wait we could well be shoving literally any two garbage crap which is easily dominated.

You are looking for FE with a 4 blind AVERAGE stack? Are you for real? No one has any real FE when there are still 7 left to bust before you reach the bubble. By the way, that makes no sense either, you're looking for FE, yet you are folding 4'4s in this spot? o_O It makes sense to shove any two if you genuinely believe you are looking for FE and actually believe you are going to get it.


I must say if you feel it make sense to fold here then you're one of the other scared players looking to min cash then you may as well just throw your money down the drain to start with as you are never ever going to be able to fold your way to the bubble you have to get your stack in most likely at least twice..so not sure what you're waiting for? Hoping to pick up aces and get a double and still be crippled anyways because of the chances you have passed up previously, like in this case?

I must say btw...the structure is SO bad...I'm surprised anyone would play in this and because people are actually playing in this tournament means they must in general be bad players(no one would want to have 11 remaining and an avg stack of 4 blinds lol, should of just set up a home game hyper turbo ) therefore shoving the 4'4s is even better when you get a table fulll of a bunch of nitty "I'm trying to min cash" players as you just get folds all day long and have 90% of chips in play and let them all blind each other out of this tournament.
 
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BigThingWithHolesInIt

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Seriously. Less condescending hyperbole and more decent arguments please. Stop assuming I'm making a case for folding here always, I'm making a case for maybe not shove if table dynamics are against it.

Wow..you think we're on the bubble when there are still 7 players to bust before we have reached the money? We're a million miles away from that and have to get our chips in at least two times, maybe more to comfortably make the money table.

11 players with 5BBs on average. We're a million miles away from the bubble? The game is brought down to pre-flop shoves and folds. So in a few minutes there will be 6 players with 9 (current) BBs on average. Blinds increase, antes added, this will not take long anymore.

When the avg stack has 4blinds left and there are 11 left (awful structure btw) and only 4 get paid then the bubble hasn't even come into effect yet so considering to fold here is awful.

This is not helpful. You're simply outlining the situation, which has already been acknowledged, and is not in itself an argument for why folding is awful.

Of course we want to at least have our 4'4s have some equity at show down so when we do get called, we have that..If we wait we could well be shoving literally any two garbage crap which is easily dominated.

You are looking for FE with a 4 blind AVERAGE stack? Are you for real? No one has any real FE when there are still 7 left to bust before you reach the bubble. By the way, that makes no sense either, you're looking for FE, yet you are folding 4'4s in this spot? o_O It makes sense to shove any two if you genuinely believe you are looking for FE and actually believe you are going to get it.

So we don't have any FE and can expect to get called by at least two of the other players with 3-4 overs for us to tackle? Then please explain to me how that is better than folding.

I must say if you feel it make sense to fold here then you're one of the other scared players looking to min cash then you may as well just throw your money down the drain to start with as you are never ever going to be able to fold your way to the bubble you have to get your stack in most likely at least twice..so not sure what you're waiting for? Hoping to pick up aces and get a double and still be crippled anyways because of the chances you have passed up previously, like in this case?

Blah blah why are you even playing this game if you etc. PROVIDE ARGUMENTS. I told you what I might be waiting for, better position with a range that includes worse hands, so no, not picking up aces. Read.

I must say btw...the structure is SO bad...I'm surprised anyone would play in this and because people are actually playing in this tournament means they must in general be bad players(no one would want to have 11 remaining and an avg stack of 4 blinds lol, should of just set up a home game hyper turbo ) therefore shoving the 4'4s is even better when you get a table fulll of a bunch of nitty "I'm trying to min cash" players as you just get folds all day long and have 90% of chips in play and let them all blind each other out of this tournament.

As you may have noticed, I agreed that against nitty players this is an easy shove.
 
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RamdeeBen

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Seriously. Less condescending hyperbole and more decent arguments please. Stop assuming I'm making a case for folding here always, I'm making a case for maybe not shove if table dynamics are against it.

You say yourself, I have repeated myself. If you still don't get it, I can't say any more..I'm NOT assuming your folding, you said dependant on table dynamics. It is totally irrelevant. The table has an AVG stack of 4 blinds..yourself has a stack of 8 blinds. There is no argument for folding here..

Firstly, if you can't see why it's an easy shove here then you need to look at late play strat on MTT's. There is no need for decent argument, it's just so natural to be shoving here.

Please explain as I'm intrigued as to what argument you honestly believe is good for folding here. What "dynamics" make you want to fold then? I can't see any. The only time I'd consider is, if we are ON the bubble (we are not) and there are shorter stacks like in this case, apart from that there is nothing else to look at.


11 players with 5BBs on average. We're a million miles away from the bubble? The game is brought down to pre-flop shoves and folds. So in a few minutes there will be 6 players with 9 (current) BBs on average. Blinds increase, antes added, this will not take long anymore.

Yes, we should not even be thinking in terms of bubble in this spot. If you fold, you're giving away far to much equity.



This is not helpful. You're simply outlining the situation, which has already been acknowledged, and is not in itself an argument for why folding is awful.


So we don't have any FE and can expect to get called by at least two of the other players with 3-4 overs for us to tackle? Then please explain to me how that is better than folding.

There is no argument to fold here..it's a shove..I've said "why" it's bad to fold and you're basically saying I'm repeating myself but are now asking again why folding is awful? Sounds like you're contradicting yourself and asking me to explain again.

You said previously in your other comment we would be shoving for FE...now you're saying we don't have FE..so which one is it?:)

I said we don't have FE, because in reality we don't unless we have a table ful of min cashers who want to try limp in the money with 7 to go and 3 blinds left..(right)

We NEED to flip at some point with the way this awful structure works and we need to flip a few times. We have equity at least with any pocket pair..and fours are good enough to shove. If we fold then we pass up a good chance of busting someone and increasing our stack. If we fold we also give someone a huge chip increase and put ourselves in a spot where we now have to be shoving very very soon, meaning we need to pick up a good hand. Chances are, we won't. A pair of fours at this point is a monster..if we run into someone with a better pair then so be it, but we are not playing for min cash, we are going for the win.(I hope) When we run in to over cards, we're flipping..which is a very standard part of short stack poker in MTT's and when you get deep in a few, you will realise these are spots you can't pass up on....(this is more so relevant in this case because of stack sizes)



Blah blah why are you even playing this game if you etc. PROVIDE ARGUMENTS. I told you what I might be waiting for, better position with a range that includes worse hands, so no, not picking up aces. Read.


As you may have noticed, I agreed that against nitty players this is an easy shove.

There is no argument though as I keep saying, folding here is BAD based on what I have just said above for the 3rd/4th time..

And I've told you, there is no better position than this position, if you fold here, unless you get very lucky and pick up a better pair, aces/kings within the next couple of hands then you are in a worse position. You have lost potentially a decent pot for folding fours.

Like you say, you end up shoving WORSE..with a shorter stack in most cases and you have even less SD value than with the fours.


Agaisnt any players, this is a shove anyway at this stage with current stack sizes, 7 from bubble, not just nitty ones with dead money in the pot .


It's not an STT on the bubble, this is the only time I could find an argument to fold is on the bubble when there are shorter stacks to act, but this is far from the case here.
 
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BigThingWithHolesInIt

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Firstly, if you can't see why it's an easy shove here then you need to look at late play strat on MTT's. There is no need for decent argument, it's just so natural to be shoving here.

This makes no sense. If it's such an easy shove, it should be very easy to explain.

Please explain as I'm intrigued as to what argument you honestly believe is good for folding here. What "dynamics" make you want to fold then? I can't see any. The only time I'd consider is, if we are ON the bubble (we are not) and there are shorter stacks like in this case, apart from that there is nothing else to look at.
There are three shorter stacks and one equal stack. We may not be technically on the bubble but how many hands until we are? More than 10?

Yes, we should not even be thinking in terms of bubble in this spot. If you fold, you're giving away far to much equity.

There is no argument to fold here..it's a shove..I've said "why" it's bad to fold and you're basically saying I'm repeating myself but are now asking again why folding is awful? Sounds like you're contradicting yourself and asking me to explain again.
No you did not say "why". You say folding loses equity, is bad poker, is unacceptable outside of the bubble... These are statements. Not arguments. They don't explain anything.

You said previously in your other comment we would be shoving for FE...now you're saying we don't have FE..so which one is it?:)
You're turning it upside down. You are the one who is stating we don't have FE. So I ask you, why is it so good to shove 44 here when there is always someone calling and we are almost never better and often worse than a flip, while we actually have a chip lead over most of our opponents?
My opinion is that if indeed we do not have any FE it makes a case for folding.

It seems your argument assumes that we are going to get exactly one caller. I put to you that considering the stack sizes, one of two things is happening:
- Table is very nitty, blind structure is reasonable, there should've been much less people left at this point but hero is the only one making plays. In this case, no-brainer shove, because you have FE and a hand that may hold up should you get a caller.
- Blind structure is awful. Everyone is now in a rush to get his chips in. Your shove isn't going to ever push everyone out so the best you can hope for is a flip.
So why do you assume we are getting no less and no more than one caller?
 
ManicLombax

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Thanks everyone for your highly spirited thoughts on this hand. Agree the structure was nasty. Went 200/400, 300/600, 500/1000, 1000/2000. That last step's a doozie! Still, I was able to take advantage of weaker players before this who were waiting for better spots, not realizing that when that next blind increase came around they'd suddenly be left with 2.5BB.

Even so, going to have to pony up $80 for a deeper tourney next time I think.
 
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RamdeeBen

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This makes no sense. If it's such an easy shove, it should be very easy to explain.

Wow..I've already said why it's an easy shove. Check my comments as to why it's easy to shove. I will break it down because I'm not repeating for a 5th time. stack sizes, tournament structure + SD equity means it's a shove imo.

There are three shorter stacks and one equal stack. We may not be technically on the bubble but how many hands until we are? More than 10?

Right..so this makes our decision even easier. If we shove, we have SD equity + our tournament life isn't on the line.

Exactly..10 hands down the line if we haven't shoved we are in a much worse shape than we are now + there is a high chance we will be one of the shorter stacks. I'd much prefere to take my "gamble" now and have SOME equity even if not great..than literally be blinded away and have no equity after we call of with 3,9os for example. This spot is clearly a gamble spot based on the structure.

No you did not say "why". You say folding loses equity, is bad poker, is unacceptable outside of the bubble... These are statements. Not arguments. They don't explain anything.

I'm struggling to see why you are struggling understanding me?We HAVE SD equity, we have short stack, tournament structure is bad, these are not arguments these are FACTS and good enough ones to justify shoving yet you are saying they don't explain anything? They explain exactly WHY we SHOULD be shoving.. There isn't an argument for folding, as no ICM is in play, no bubble play is in the making.

You're turning it upside down. You are the one who is stating we don't have FE. So I ask you, why is it so good to shove 44 here when there is always someone calling and we are almost never better and often worse than a flip, while we actually have a chip lead over most of our opponents?
My opinion is that if indeed we do not have any FE it makes a case for folding.

Indeed..I've always said we don't have FE..everyone is so short that FE doesn't exist against even shorter stacks. We aren't exactly deep ourselves.

It's so good to shove 44 here based on again, like I say..we have equity to WIN the hand if called. I think you're wrong...we are often good with any pair in most cases against someones calling range when they are so shallow stacked like 3-4blinds. These guys should be nearly calling alsorts of suited hands based on the dead money and having no chips left. If they keep folding and folding they will be blined it. If they wake up with a better pair, good for them, they got lucky to get a spot where they pick up a good pair. We EXPECT to called in most cases but we don't expect to be worse, we expect to be flipping in most cases and because of the structure in this tournament, this is a good spot. Flipping for such short stacks is the best outcome in most cases. I'm unsure as to why you think we're worse and only caled by worse? This is not true..when soemone is so short. People call of much, much wider when they are 10blinds deep with any suited hand, a,x/k,x etcetc..so if we get those calls at 10blinds deep, you can expect nearly ATC calling at this point with 3-4blinds left.

Also, we have a chip advantage yes, but we are not in good shape at all. We NEED to win a flip here and there to get a good stack for the paid places. If we fold here, we're giving away a 3k pot which is dead money and we still have chips in play when called and we lose. If we get someone elses stack we are in great shape, we can bully and put pressure on the others. You need to put the pressure on when you have a bigger stack, you need to get others to put their tournament life on the line.

If we fold like I say, we give up a lot of dead money and a good chance for a 10k stack to have the same amount of chips as us in the next couple of hands, or even better by busting someone else meaning within 2 hands, we could become the shorter stack and being bullied by the new equal/bigger stack who won the pot we shoudd of been trying to win ourselves.

It seems your argument assumes that we are going to get exactly one caller. I put to you that considering the stack sizes, one of two things is happening:
- Table is very nitty, blind structure is reasonable, there should've been much less people left at this point but hero is the only one making plays. In this case, no-brainer shove, because you have FE and a hand that may hold up should you get a caller.
- Blind structure is awful. Everyone is now in a rush to get his chips in. Your shove isn't going to ever push everyone out so the best you can hope for is a flip.
So why do you assume we are getting no less and no more than one caller?

I don't assume that at all..if we get more than one caller, so be it, we know at least one is busting and there is a chance our fours still hold so we still have equity + we have outs to hit our set. Chances are we are getting called by broadways..if we get more callers with broadways, this only increases our equity even more.

FE or not (I don't believe FE exists at this point) We are not in great shape ourselves, we need a double up or two still to be comfortable. We can't wait around..a pair is good here to shove with.

If we fold, we are just giving away chips at the end of the day.



I ask you, would you be happy shoving in this spot with A,10suited+? Even A,JS?+ If so, then our 4'4s our in better shape than their over cards. We are only beat by higher pairs...and that's is a chance we take.
 
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RamdeeBen

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Thanks everyone for your highly spirited thoughts on this hand. Agree the structure was nasty. Went 200/400, 300/600, 500/1000, 1000/2000. That last step's a doozie! Still, I was able to take advantage of weaker players before this who were waiting for better spots, not realizing that when that next blind increase came around they'd suddenly be left with 2.5BB.

Even so, going to have to pony up $80 for a deeper tourney next time I think.

Yeah..that's my point if we had folded, chances are blinds go up and we ourselves are in worse shape than we was.

What did you do in the hand btw?
 
Karkus77

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guys, let it go, you obviously dont agree, your never going to change the others mind, just leave it

i am also intrigued, what did you do?
 
ManicLombax

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I shipped it, got called by BB, lost flip. Pretty sure shipping was good, just wanted to see if anyone would have folded being UTG and so likely to get called. Would have had about 1/4 of the chips in play had I won the flip, so can't feel too bad.
 
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