$4.40 NLHE MTT Rebuy: Loose play Early in 4k GTD

theANMATOR

theANMATOR

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4k GTD 4.40 buyin This hand happens at the very start of the 3rd level.
5k starting chips with 15 twelve minute levels.

I think I have only played one hand so far, called a min-raise in the big blind, and folded on the flop.

Blinds 40/80 with a 10 chip ante.

Player 1 (67.98 bb) opens UTG+2 to 2.5bb
Player 2 (81.37 bb) calls on the button
I'm in the big blind holding 9/8 off with 68.27 bb.

In the moment - I decided to make this call because I have a note on player 1 - he will bet large on the turn when he is either chasing or bluffing. When he is betting for value - he bets only half pot, or just over half pot.
I doubt this is a good 'reason' to make this call with 2 players coming in for a moderate size bet - this early in a MTT - but at the time - this was my thinking, lets give this note a good test. I normally put a (c) on the note when I have confirmed a tell on a player. This note had a (c) on it.
I didn't even consider the button player in this hand - possibly a mistake.

Input on this early continue and my reasoning? :eek::confused::stupid::stupid::hmmmm2::hmmmm2::dontknow::dontknow:
 
eetenor

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4k GTD 4.40 buyin This hand happens at the very start of the 3rd level.
5k starting chips with 15 twelve minute levels.

I think I have only played one hand so far, called a min-raise in the big blind, and folded on the flop.

Blinds 40/80 with a 10 chip ante.

Player 1 (67.98 bb) opens UTG+2 to 2.5bb
Player 2 (81.37 bb) calls on the button
I'm in the big blind holding 9/8 off with 68.27 bb.

In the moment - I decided to make this call because I have a note on player 1 - he will bet large on the turn when he is either chasing or bluffing. When he is betting for value - he bets only half pot, or just over half pot.
I doubt this is a good 'reason' to make this call with 2 players coming in for a moderate size bet - this early in a MTT - but at the time - this was my thinking, lets give this note a good test. I normally put a (c) on the note when I have confirmed a tell on a player. This note had a (c) on it.
I didn't even consider the button player in this hand - possibly a mistake.

Input on this early continue and my reasoning? :eek::confused::stupid::stupid::hmmmm2::hmmmm2::dontknow::dontknow:


Thank you for posting

98off is a straight forward play out of position post flop and this is a rebuy and you have a read so these are the times we can gamble.

The benefit of this situation is you become last to act on each street if UTG is leading.

Also stack sizes are such that you will not be facing big over bet size shoves on turn in this spot most of the time. If the stacks were 40ish we may not be able to see all 3 streets and therefore our drawing hand -which 98 will be most of the time post flop- cannot realize it's full equity often enough to call preflop.

Hope this helps
:):)
 
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Badday94

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This is a spot you could defend as bb since it's so early on and the blinds are small. Myself I like playing connectors in these situations, why not? Sometimes it's worth to try, don't know if that tell on one player is gonna help you here since it's a 3 way, you can't bluff yourself in a 3 way only in very few situations so you have to flop well in this one. You try, and if you don't, the loss is small.
 
Jon Poker

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For what is close to 70bb effective 98o is certainly a loose defend from the BB in a multiway pot - totally standard if this were to be a heads up pot - that said 98s would be an easy call multiway.

Basically when we defend a hand like this multiway it is very straight forward - we are looking to flop the world - two pair or better - otherwise we simply play very passive and fold to most bets. Easy game, no sense spewing a ton of chips with a marginal hand while 2 ranges are still fairly uncapped and we could easily be losing.

On the flip side if we were heads up, its much easier to play range on certain flops and quickly turn our hand into a bluff or realize our showdown value vs a single villan
 
theANMATOR

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The Flop

Thank you for posting

98off is a straight forward play out of position post flop and this is a rebuy and you have a read so these are the times we can gamble.

The benefit of this situation is you become last to act on each street if UTG is leading.

Also stack sizes are such that you will not be facing big over bet size shoves on turn in this spot most of the time. If the stacks were 40ish we may not be able to see all 3 streets and therefore our drawing hand -which 98 will be most of the time post flop- cannot realize it's full equity often enough to call preflop.

Hope this helps
:):)

This is a spot you could defend as bb since it's so early on and the blinds are small. Myself I like playing connectors in these situations, why not? Sometimes it's worth to try, don't know if that tell on one player is gonna help you here since it's a 3 way, you can't bluff yourself in a 3 way only in very few situations so you have to flop well in this one. You try, and if you don't, the loss is small.

For what is close to 70bb effective 98o is certainly a loose defend from the BB in a multiway pot - totally standard if this were to be a heads up pot - that said 98s would be an easy call multiway.

Basically when we defend a hand like this multiway it is very straight forward - we are looking to flop the world - two pair or better - otherwise we simply play very passive and fold to most bets. Easy game, no sense spewing a ton of chips with a marginal hand while 2 ranges are still fairly uncapped and we could easily be losing.

On the flip side if we were heads up, its much easier to play range on certain flops and quickly turn our hand into a bluff or realize our showdown value vs a single villan


Wow - thanks a lot guys. I figured you'd rip me up defending here - multi-way unsuited for a silly reason, attempting to see if my read on the UTG+2 player was accurate.

My thinking here was to hopefully get head up with UTG+2 and hopefully it would not cost a lot, although if it did - we are early, and I was willing to rebuy if needed - for this one time. The other thing that went through my mind was - when will I be able to take advantage of the confirmed read I have on the player - if not early in an event - when we are deep. Obviously when I have a stronger hand - but I guess I wanted to be a little looser here - than I normally am.

Pot = 8.91bb & the flop comes :8h4::ks4::3s4: we hold :9c4::8s4:
UTG+2 player bets 3.5x
Button folds.
What do we do here?
Hard to put the player on a tight range - he's opening from EP so he possibly has a K, and he could also have a flush draw. That's all that went into my thinking up to this point, knowing I needed to see a turn to use my knowledge on this players bet sizing tell.
 
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fundiver199

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Preflop
We need to defend tighter in a multiway pot, especially if the field caller is a competent player. So when BTN comes in for the call, unless he is a crazy fish, I am out of there with 98o. Just no need to get involved out of position in some sticky situation, where the most likely thing for me to flop is a weak pair.

Flop
For this sizing, and when BTN folds, I guess, we have to peel one street and see the turn. It is important to note though, that UTG should be stronger when C-betting into two opponents rather than one. But in a sense its better to have second pair here rather than top pair weak kicker, since we then have 5 outs against hands like AA, AK and KQ. And we are flipping against draws.
 
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Badday94

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Wow - thanks a lot guys. I figured you'd rip me up defending here - multi-way unsuited for a silly reason, attempting to see if my read on the UTG+2 player was accurate.

My thinking here was to hopefully get head up with UTG+2 and hopefully it would not cost a lot, although if it did - we are early, and I was willing to rebuy if needed - for this one time. The other thing that went through my mind was - when will I be able to take advantage of the confirmed read I have on the player - if not early in an event - when we are deep. Obviously when I have a stronger hand - but I guess I wanted to be a little looser here - than I normally am.

Pot = 8.91bb & the flop comes :8h4::ks4::3s4: we hold :9c4::8s4:
UTG+2 player bets 3.5x
Button folds.
What do we do here?
Hard to put the player on a tight range - he's opening from EP so he possibly has a K, and he could also have a flush draw. That's all that went into my thinking up to this point, knowing I needed to see a turn to use my knowledge on this players bet sizing tell.


Definitely a call here to see the turn. So here either you make trips or two pair on turn, or if not, use your tell on the player. If he bets bigger than half pot, probably it's a bluff. Personally I would fold on turn if I don't improve here and he bets. Even if you are ahead with that pair of 8's or if he has some draw, he might get lucky on the river as it usually happens and then what do you do.
 
eetenor

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Wow - thanks a lot guys. I figured you'd rip me up defending here - multi-way unsuited for a silly reason, attempting to see if my read on the UTG+2 player was accurate.

My thinking here was to hopefully get head up with UTG+2 and hopefully it would not cost a lot, although if it did - we are early, and I was willing to rebuy if needed - for this one time. The other thing that went through my mind was - when will I be able to take advantage of the confirmed read I have on the player - if not early in an event - when we are deep. Obviously when I have a stronger hand - but I guess I wanted to be a little looser here - than I normally am.

Pot = 8.91bb & the flop comes :8h4::ks4::3s4: we hold :9c4::8s4:
UTG+2 player bets 3.5x
Button folds.
What do we do here?
Hard to put the player on a tight range - he's opening from EP so he possibly has a K, and he could also have a flush draw. That's all that went into my thinking up to this point, knowing I needed to see a turn to use my knowledge on this players bet sizing tell.


Thanks for posting

Ok we got more than we wanted- we wanted the chance to read the opponent on the turn to bluff them out of the pot- we got that when the 3rd V folds- that plus we hit a pair so we can improve to best hand or have best hand right now.

So the call is automatic.

The key here is do we have the best plan to get that fold on turn or river?

Hope this helps
:):)
 
Jon Poker

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Wow - thanks a lot guys. I figured you'd rip me up defending here - multi-way unsuited for a silly reason, attempting to see if my read on the UTG+2 player was accurate.

My thinking here was to hopefully get head up with UTG+2 and hopefully it would not cost a lot, although if it did - we are early, and I was willing to rebuy if needed - for this one time. The other thing that went through my mind was - when will I be able to take advantage of the confirmed read I have on the player - if not early in an event - when we are deep. Obviously when I have a stronger hand - but I guess I wanted to be a little looser here - than I normally am.

Pot = 8.91bb & the flop comes :8h4::ks4::3s4: we hold :9c4::8s4:
UTG+2 player bets 3.5x
Button folds.
What do we do here?
Hard to put the player on a tight range - he's opening from EP so he possibly has a K, and he could also have a flush draw. That's all that went into my thinking up to this point, knowing I needed to see a turn to use my knowledge on this players bet sizing tell.


This is where things get weird and is exactly the spot I am talking about. Our vill cbet in the middle vs 2 opponents - this is not good. Remember I said we are looking to flop the world with 2 pair or better? Loose or not, villan is still uncapped here - he has all the Kx, overcards to our 8 with the flush draw, better 8x, underpairs to the K, etc. So it can be eaaaasy for us be behind here with 2nd pair - just fold. Lose the minimum, you don't need this pot. Who cares if you folded the best hand?? It's one hand, and if villan truely is a fish, you can play more pots with him later and get the chips easily. We call here and the turn comes and broadway card and he double barrels - we are going to be folding alot anyhow.

If this were a heads up pot, 2nd pair is easily a snap call - but the dynamics here are different...it wasn't heads up when villan cbet flop and so that factor remains the same. Calling with 2nd pair here is going to burn up chips more often than not. Especially against an agro villan who will keep firing and make your life miserable. Fold and move on.
 
eetenor

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This is where things get weird and is exactly the spot I am talking about. Our vill cbet in the middle vs 2 opponents - this is not good. Remember I said we are looking to flop the world with 2 pair or better? Loose or not, villan is still uncapped here - he has all the Kx, overcards to our 8 with the flush draw, better 8x, underpairs to the K, etc. So it can be eaaaasy for us be behind here with 2nd pair - just fold. Lose the minimum, you don't need this pot. Who cares if you folded the best hand?? It's one hand, and if villan truely is a fish, you can play more pots with him later and get the chips easily. We call here and the turn comes and broadway card and he double barrels - we are going to be folding alot anyhow.

If this were a heads up pot, 2nd pair is easily a snap call - but the dynamics here are different...it wasn't heads up when villan cbet flop and so that factor remains the same. Calling with 2nd pair here is going to burn up chips more often than not. Especially against an agro villan who will keep firing and make your life miserable. Fold and move on.


Thank you for posting

All of your points are correct and without the read that the original poster stated was the purpose of the call preflop your suggested actions are correct.

However, we called for the turn read so if we decided to play an exploit strategy preflop and the exploit happens on the turn that is when we make our decisions. We must call the flop bet, for this sizing, our purpose was not to just hit big on the flop. We now can steal this pot if the V defines his hand as expected on the turn.

If the V does not define their hand then we apply all of your correct estimates and fold the turn.

P.S.

Watched your study video streams they were informative. Thanks for sharing.:):)
 
Jon Poker

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P.S.

Watched your study video streams they were informative. Thanks for sharing.:):)


Thanks! Glad you found them helpful - I'm having internet provider issues for the time being. Once I get that taken care of hopefully I will begin to do more of them.
 
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Would be nice to hear what happened here after all :)
 
theANMATOR

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Turn & River Oh My!

Preflop
We need to defend tighter in a multiway pot, especially if the field caller is a competent player.

Flop
For this sizing, and when BTN folds, I guess, we have to peel one street and see the turn. It is important to note though, that UTG should be stronger when C-betting into two opponents rather than one. But in a sense its better to have second pair here rather than top pair weak kicker, since we then have 5 outs against hands like AA, AK and KQ. And we are flipping against draws.

Definitely a call here to see the turn. So here either you make trips or two pair on turn, or if not, use your tell on the player.

Ok we got more than we wanted- we wanted the chance to read the opponent on the turn to bluff them out of the pot- we got that when the 3rd V folds- that plus we hit a pair so we can improve to best hand or have best hand right now.
So the call is automatic.

The key here is do we have the best plan to get that fold on turn or river?


This is where things get weird and is exactly the spot I am talking about. Our vill cbet in the middle vs 2 opponents - this is not good. Remember I said we are looking to flop the world with 2 pair or better? Loose or not, villan is still uncapped here - he has all the Kx, overcards to our 8 with the flush draw, better 8x, underpairs to the K, etc. So it can be eaaaasy for us be behind here with 2nd pair - just fold.

If this were a heads up pot, 2nd pair is easily a snap call - but the dynamics here are different...it wasn't heads up when villan cbet flop and so that factor remains the same. Calling with 2nd pair here is going to burn up chips more often than not. Especially against an agro villan who will keep firing and make your life miserable. Fold and move on.

All of your points are correct and without the read that the original poster stated was the purpose of the call preflop your suggested actions are correct.

However, we called for the turn read so if we decided to play an exploit strategy preflop and the exploit happens on the turn that is when we make our decisions. We must call the flop bet, for this sizing, our purpose was not to just hit big on the flop. We now can steal this pot if the V defines his hand as expected on the turn.

If the V does not define their hand then we apply all of your correct estimates and fold the turn.

Would be nice to hear what happened here after all :)

Hey guys thanks for holding strong - I had a great post written up - with graphs, and theoritical models, with emotes and memes, and lots a lots of MATHS to support my decisions - but I was distracted for several hours with gameplay - and my browser happened to reset later in the evening wiping out that beautiful post. ;)
But anyway - enough with the bluffing :)

Jon - as eetenor stated above - all your input is on the mark, however I'm looking to take advantage of a read I have - an exploit in the loosest term, a tell, so in this instance we have to see the turn. And luckily for us the player on the button folds giving us a head up situation.
Still as you point out - not ideal since the original raiser is clearly presenting himself as having a strong hand. True to your strong points he is totally uncapped, he could have top pair, an overpair, a set, or anything, All we have here is 2nd pair with a nothing kicker.


I would certainly love to hear your (and others) feedback on when we take advantage of our exploits - that we are pretty certain of, and deviate from a more straight forward GTO approach?
I don't think we can always count on the runout assisting us in exploiting an opponent simply because it 'hits' our perceived range better, or if we have a 'range' advantage vs a nut advantage.


So I decided to make the call on the flop.


The pot is now 15.91bb and the turn is :5h4:


Now the board is :8h4::ks4::3s4::5h4:

Our villain continues his aggressive posture by betting out here 10.94bb
So in my simple math brain - that is roughly 3/4 pot - slightly under 70%. ?

Based on our note - the villain here can be doing both of what my note says, he could be bluffing and chasing. With the board having two flush draws coming in, I'm pretty confident he is going after one of them.
I guess he could also have a middle pair as well 77s, thru JJs, though 88s would be a set, and possibly he could still have a King and want to protect his hand with a larger bet size.

But - that's not what my note says. If he is betting for value he would bet smaller on the turn, so we are OPTIMISTICALLY putting him on a flush draw, and possibly a 3rd pair type hand, maybe A/5, 66s or 77s.

If ya'll have input on the turn - I'm happy to hear it, although I suspect the tighter, more theoritical players will say something like - I would never be in this spot, so I'd just fold on the turn, the bet is too large and we have a junk hand, better to conserve chips and find a better spot than risk losing more here.
The more adventurous players - less tight - more exploitative - might take the note (exploit) we have into consideration and make this call to see a river.

We make the call on the turn - and now the pot is 37.8bb.

The river is one of the cards I think villain was looking for. It is :2s4: for a final board of
:8h4::ks4::3s4::5h4::2s4:

We hold :9c4::8s4: 2nd pair - no kicker.

And the villain overbets the river all in for 51.04bb.
I would have under one small blind if I called and lost here.

What to do?
 
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Sidetracked

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I think that in this situation, 98o is a fold. 98s would be a call.

The suitedness really gives you more options once you see a flop, and more opportunities to apply appropriate aggression on certain boards.
 
theANMATOR

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I think that in this situation, 98o is a fold. 98s would be a call.

The suitedness really gives you more options once you see a flop, and more opportunities to apply appropriate aggression on certain boards.

Your specifically talking about preflop right Sidetracked?
 
theANMATOR

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River Reveal

So our villain is repping the flush. There is no other hand that would shove here, except a bluff.
A/4? No - unless it is A/4 of clubs, which I discount because of his betting on the turn.

So he either has the flush - or nothing. Sure I guess a lot of fishes are bombing here with sets, but that is kind of dumb, hence why they are called fish.

Are we ever good here with 2nd pair junk kicker?

I don't apply math to these situations, so regardless if this is or is not a profitable call a certain percentage of the time - I'm never going to make decisions based on speculative math values.

I ended up saying - F-it! It's early in this event - and we played this hand solely to see if the read I had assigned to this player was in fact - an accurate read.

I made the call - and villain turns over :qc4::10c4: :eek: :icon_scra

Boom! 139.88 bb pot my way. :five:
 
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fundiver199

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Without reads I would have folded on the turn. However after calling turn I do like your river call. You called turn, because you thought, this guy was likely to be bluffing, and then you have to be prepared to get sticky on most rivers as well. I would rather have a hand like As8d for calling him down, since that would block more of his flushes, but 9c8s is a better hand to call with than for instance KhQh. This is definitely not the standard play, but seeing, that he bluffed away his stack with no pair, no draw, no overcard, I think, you clearly picked the right opponent to get sticky against. Nice hand :)
 
theANMATOR

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Without reads I would have folded on the turn. However after calling turn I do like your river call. You called turn, because you thought, this guy was likely to be bluffing, and then you have to be prepared to get sticky on most rivers as well. I would rather have a hand like As8d for calling him down, since that would block more of his flushes, but 9c8s is a better hand to call with than for instance KhQh. This is definitely not the standard play, but seeing, that he bluffed away his stack with no pair, no draw, no overcard, I think, you clearly picked the right opponent to get sticky against. Nice hand :)

Thanks fundiver. Yeah certainly not a standard hand for me. I'm usually never even continuing preflop vs 2 opponents with this hand. But I decided to check on a 'tell' - it happened to be correct this one time.
Villain could certainly have had the flush here - but it was either that or nothing, I got lucky playing this loose early. I guess sometimes it's not entirely bad to deviate from standard play when we have a solid read on an opponent.
 
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Good stuff. Imagine you bluff like that, well in my opinion given the board, and you get called by second pair no kicker lol. Wouldn't have had the courage to make that call on river after the board suited, so well done. With my luck, a queen of spades would have come on river haha
 
dallam

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Q10s ouch.

I just want to add, notes have a very large rule in the game, and maybe not the most sparkling party that a poker player can have, but proved you that you were right on this player, and can be used this experience against him in the future. And yeah, sometimes you can go for it wisely to see how he reacts in situations - especially when it comes to that long tourney... :)
 
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Your specifically talking about preflop right Sidetracked?


I was talking about preflop there.

I've tried to become more disciplined in calling raises from the BB preflop, and it does make your post flop life a lot easier.
 
theANMATOR

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Good stuff. Imagine you bluff like that, well in my opinion given the board, and you get called by second pair no kicker lol. Wouldn't have had the courage to make that call on river after the board suited, so well done. With my luck, a queen of spades would have come on river haha
Yeah - I have that kind of luck often. For me it usually hits something like the 9 of spades - and I make the call with a weak 2 pair and dude has nut flush LOL. But I got lucky this one time.
 
theANMATOR

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I was talking about preflop there.
I've tried to become more disciplined in calling raises from the BB preflop, and it does make your post flop life a lot easier.

Same with me - minus this one loose call here. I see a a lot of players giving away tons of chips defending with any junk sooted cards or bad Ace rags in the bb. This one hand is an exception to my TAG style - and is why I wanted to post for input from the community.
 
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