$33 NLHE MTT: Flopped draw from BB

[duggs]

No notes or stats on UTG, just want to see how other play this hand

pokerstars - $30+$3|300/600 NL (9 max) - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3: http://www.pokertracker.com

Hero (BB): 20,666.00
UTG: 14,723.00
UTG+1: 13,662.00
MP: 5,963.00
MP+1: 14,769.00
CO: 19,318.00
BTN: 23,359.00
SB: 31,544.00

Hero posts ante 50.00, UTG posts ante 50.00, UTG+1 posts ante 50.00, MP posts ante 50.00, MP+1 posts ante 50.00, CO posts ante 50.00, BTN posts ante 50.00, SB posts ante 50.00, SB posts SB 300.00, Hero posts BB 600.00

Pre Flop: (1300.00) Hero has Js Qs

UTG raises to 1,200.00, fold, fold, fold, CO calls 1,200.00, fold, fold, Hero calls 600.00

Flop: (4300.00, 3 players) 7s Ad Ks

Hero ??

 

[baudib1]

fold pre

as played, check-shove all day

 

[duggs]

PokerStars - $30+$3|300/600 NL (9 max) - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3: http://www.pokertracker.com

Hero (BB): 20,666.00
UTG: 14,723.00
UTG+1: 13,662.00
MP: 5,963.00
MP+1: 14,769.00
CO: 19,318.00
BTN: 23,359.00
SB: 31,544.00

Hero posts ante 50.00, UTG posts ante 50.00, UTG+1 posts ante 50.00, MP posts ante 50.00, MP+1 posts ante 50.00, CO posts ante 50.00, BTN posts ante 50.00, SB posts ante 50.00, SB posts SB 300.00, Hero posts BB 600.00

Pre Flop: (1300.00) Hero has Js Qs

UTG raises to 1,200.00, fold, fold, fold, CO calls 1,200.00, fold, fold, Hero calls 600.00

Flop: (4300.00, 3 players) 7s Ad Ks
Hero bets 2,400.00, fold, CO raises to 6,950.00, Hero raises to 19,416.00 and is all-in,

Im aware this is a bad line to take, but could you elaborate why please Baudib1?

 

[jbbb]

fold pre

as played, check-shove all day

Why fold pre?

PokerStars - $30+$3|300/600 NL (9 max) - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3: http://www.pokertracker.com

Hero (BB): 20,666.00
UTG: 14,723.00
UTG+1: 13,662.00
MP: 5,963.00
MP+1: 14,769.00
CO: 19,318.00
BTN: 23,359.00
SB: 31,544.00

Hero posts ante 50.00, UTG posts ante 50.00, UTG+1 posts ante 50.00, MP posts ante 50.00, MP+1 posts ante 50.00, CO posts ante 50.00, BTN posts ante 50.00, SB posts ante 50.00, SB posts SB 300.00, Hero posts BB 600.00

Pre Flop: (1300.00) Hero has Js Qs

UTG raises to 1,200.00, fold, fold, fold, CO calls 1,200.00, fold, fold, Hero calls 600.00

Flop: (4300.00, 3 players) 7s Ad Ks
Hero bets 2,400.00, fold, CO raises to 6,950.00, Hero raises to 19,416.00 and is all-in,

Im aware this is a bad line to take, but could you elaborate why please Baudib1?

I quite like this line, i'd donk smaller to allow him to raise smaller, so you have more FE when you shove.

 

[Dr Champ]

Im calling pre with good pot odds and check shoving.
Not very happy about his raise on flop with CO still to act. Really looks like he has the A here and you can expect your shove to be called here. He would prob expect you to reraise pre with AK, AA, KK. From UTG point of view and I have an A, 77 is the only hand im scared of. If I have the A with Q or J kicker (UTG range) I am getting it in as a slight favourite here. Im obviously much happier check shoving with no A on board but as played will shove given the equity in the pot.

 

[jbbb]

Does UTG fold on the flop and CO raise?

 

[baudib1]

Vs. standard UTG range we are crushed and out of position and we'll rarely have as much as 30% equity preflop.

 

[duggs]

so are you flatting any hands in this spot?

 

[WiZZiM]

Let's just discount pot odds and think about why we would be flatting here. What's our plan with the QJs?

What are we happy to stack off with vs a likely strong to very strong range from UTG?

If we're playing fit or fold postflop can we reasonably expect to win like 20-30x our call?

Let's also not think about this spot as a once off, let's say we play this exact spot 100 times, knowing we likely hit the flop around one third of the time. Of that one third we're only probably happy to stack off with a smallish % of that range. The majority we're stuck with things like draws, middle pairs, top pairs but still unsure etc etc. So try to think about how often we're just going to give away the pot on the flop, like, how many times we just give the UTG player another 600 chips.

So when you ask what hands we're flatting in this spot, i really can't think of any.


If your using pot odds as a reason to call here, you really need to read up on things like implied and reverse implied odds. We need to win a certain amount each time, to overcome the sheer number of times we're forced to just fold the flop, or get it in on the flop and still be beaten. a general rule i use is around 25-30x the call size in spots like this.

 

[Dr Champ]

Agreed you need implied odds and I dont intend to stack off on a pair of Js or Qs here. I think you have good enough implied odds here to call. Even against WiZZiM criteria you have them?
25x600 = 15000 - approx UTG stack
30x600 = 18000 - less than CO stack.
Both stacks together give you 56 x call here.
Im flatting with pairs here and and I think playing broadway suited connectors can show a profit here in the long run. I am new enough to the game so fix me if Im wrong please.

 

[baudib1]

You don't stack both very often and it's rare enough that you will stack one.